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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions M340i with RWD or AWD?

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      03-31-2019, 11:32 AM   #1
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M340i with RWD or AWD?

As someone who lives in a place where it almost never rains, I think I would be more inclined to get an M340i with RWD. However, I'm just curious to see if anyone would rather spec an M340i with AWD instead. If so, why?
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      03-31-2019, 11:40 AM   #2
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RWD = lighter and less complex. Power to rear, steering input all up front. Less understeer and, typically, less weight over the front axle as well contributing to better steering feel. I live in the DC/Baltimore corridor though so personally? I'm springing the extra money for AWD. YMMV.
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      03-31-2019, 11:47 AM   #3
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2023 BMW i4 m50  [0.00]
2020 BMW M340  [0.00]
2018 mx3 40  [0.00]
2016 340  [0.00]
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If you need them get real winter tires. They are great in the snow.
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      03-31-2019, 11:51 AM   #4
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I live in a climate that requires AWD, but I still think there are benefits if you live somewhere that doesn't require it.

The biggest thing is traction. In my F30 340xi, I can go WOT from a stoplight and I know the car will put the power down immediately in a straight line with no wheelspin whatsoever. The AWD car is going to be faster around the city, and the RWD will have an edge on the highway since it's lighter and the traction benefit disappears at speed. It really depends on where you do most of your driving and what your priorities are.

AWD turns the car into a "point and shoot" vehicle which may turn some people off. I'm personally a fan of not having to worry about traction and knowing I can put all of my power down in a straight (or mildly straight) line at any given moment.

Last edited by RPM1123; 03-31-2019 at 11:57 AM..
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      03-31-2019, 11:51 AM   #5
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RWD

The value of XDrive (when equipped with proper winter tires) will help get you going on snow/ice. If that is not a factor, the next possible benefit is helping get power to the ground by splitting it among 4 tires if the torque would overwhelm just two. I don't think we have much of that situation here either. I think I recall reading a benefit of .1 second to 60, which might interest the drag-race obsessed, assuming one pulls away from standstill at WOT very often.

Against that you incur:
  • reduced steering feel
  • more tendency to understeer
  • more purchase price
  • more maintenance cost
  • more fuel consumption

XDrive should be chosen if/when absolutely necessary, not as the default.
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      03-31-2019, 04:57 PM   #6
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One thing to think about with the M340 in particular is that the suspension and setup were optimized for the awd model. The rwd version is an afterthought being sold in the US market only where there is still significant traditionalist pushback against awd. Globally the m340 is xdrive only, the demo cars they had the press track test were all awd. Personally I would want the setup the car was planned, developed and optimized for.
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      03-31-2019, 05:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
RWD

The value of XDrive (when equipped with proper winter tires) will help get you going on snow/ice. If that is not a factor, the next possible benefit is helping get power to the ground by splitting it among 4 tires if the torque would overwhelm just two. I don't think we have much of that situation here either. I think I recall reading a benefit of .1 second to 60, which might interest the drag-race obsessed, assuming one pulls away from standstill at WOT very often.

Against that you incur:
  • reduced steering feel
  • more tendency to understeer
  • more purchase price
  • more maintenance cost
  • more fuel consumption

XDrive should be chosen if/when absolutely necessary, not as the default.
Disagree with this, maybe it was accurate when awd was first introduced but in modern bmws the xdrive system is full integrated into the stability control and traction management systems. The computers are constantly balancing torque delivery using the awd diff front/rear and the electronic rear diff left/right. IMO you are handicapping the car by choosing rwd. For a modern performance awd system it's like cutting off an arm by taking away the ability to use the front wheels
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      03-31-2019, 05:40 PM   #8
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If you live in an area with very little rain (possibly little snow?), then I can't see much use of xdrive beyond the extra bit of traction you get from a standing start. I personally won't pay for that extra cost as I don't really have a use for it where I live.
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      03-31-2019, 07:21 PM   #9
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Even the 330 can take advantage of xDrive for additional traction from a performance perspective. While 0-60 times aren't everything, the 330 xDrive is a whole .3 seconds faster in a 0-60. xDrive also doesn't ruin the driving dynamics, as I believe it's still RWD based.
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      03-31-2019, 07:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Disagree with this, maybe it was accurate when awd was first introduced but in modern bmws the xdrive system is full integrated into the stability control and traction management systems. The computers are constantly balancing torque delivery using the awd diff front/rear and the electronic rear diff left/right. IMO you are handicapping the car by choosing rwd. For a modern performance awd system it's like cutting off an arm by taking away the ability to use the front wheels
We continue to disagree. Although you are correct about system integration, that is a necessity if one is to have a modern AWD system with the associated powertrain/chassis electronics. Although the car does exactly what you suggest, the actual practical real world benefit is nil to miniscule other than in the climate conditions previously discussed, and the downsides persist. The analogy of cutting off an arm is not all all applicable for vehicles such as the 3 Series, short of an M3 (or other higher power, exotic vehicles), where getting the high-performance torque of the powertrain to the road via two tires' contact patches could be more easily overwhelmed, with a loss of traction. For the 330 or 340, adding AWD is more akin to asking an athlete to run a sprint while carrying another 100lbs.
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      03-31-2019, 07:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauleebe View Post
Even the 330 can take advantage of xDrive for additional traction from a performance perspective. While 0-60 times aren't everything, the 330 xDrive is a whole .3 seconds faster in a 0-60. xDrive also doesn't ruin the driving dynamics, as I believe it's still RWD based.
The weight over the front end has an inevitable effect on the steering feel. I've A/B'ed BMWs from RWD to XDrive and it is noticeable...whether that matters to each one here is another issue.
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      03-31-2019, 07:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
One thing to think about with the M340 in particular is that the suspension and setup were optimized for the awd model. The rwd version is an afterthought being sold in the US market only where there is still significant traditionalist pushback against awd. Globally the m340 is xdrive only, the demo cars they had the press track test were all awd. Personally I would want the setup the car was planned, developed and optimized for.
This is simply untrue. As having worked for decades alongside Vehicle Development engineers at another car company, this is not at all how the process works. All programs have a base vehicle condition and any species variations are developed concurrently with modifications as needed. There are no "afterthoughts". Each variant was evaluated for the business case, Cost/Weight/Investment objectives, and dynamic objectives long before the first part was stamped. The CLAR platform was designed to accept the additional brackets, packaging, etc., that would be needed for AWD hardware. The base platform may or may not have the capacity for the additional weight, or those parts, braces, etc. may be specific to AWD models, but that in no way penalizes the base platform development. The very nature of the modular design of the platform allows its widespread use across vehicle lines and all requirements are included in the initial development.
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Last edited by Sportstick; 03-31-2019 at 07:42 PM..
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      03-31-2019, 09:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
One thing to think about with the M340 in particular is that the suspension and setup were optimized for the awd model. The rwd version is an afterthought being sold in the US market only where there is still significant traditionalist pushback against awd. Globally the m340 is xdrive only, the demo cars they had the press track test were all awd. Personally I would want the setup the car was planned, developed and optimized for.
This is simply untrue. As having worked for decades alongside Vehicle Development engineers at another car company, this is not at all how the process works. All programs have a base vehicle condition and any species variations are developed concurrently with modifications as needed. There are no "afterthoughts". Each variant was evaluated for the business case, Cost/Weight/Investment objectives, and dynamic objectives long before the first part was stamped. The CLAR platform was designed to accept the additional brackets, packaging, etc., that would be needed for AWD hardware. The base platform may or may not have the capacity for the additional weight, or those parts, braces, etc. may be specific to AWD models, but that in no way penalizes the base platform development. The very nature of the modular design of the platform allows its widespread use across vehicle lines and all requirements are included in the initial development.
But when optimizing the suspension settings, software control, etc the development time was spent with xdrive. Which having the front wheels to engage and manage requires very different tuning. the ability to independently and intelligently vector torque front and rear in addition to side to side creates a much more complex set of variables to be solved for. If you followed this cars development (which based on your commentary you may not have) it was clear the vehicle was going to be xdrive only for every market. Then at the last minute bmw NA demanded a rwd drive variant because they thought they needed it to sell to consumers who were traditionalists and would not under any circumstance accept the superiority of the awd system. The business case was "in the US market we project X% of sales at risk due to lack of consumer appreciation for xdrive". But ultimately the car was optimized from day 1 to be xdrive so that is how I would make my choice. This is why the M5 is only awd (aside from hooligan burnout mode) and now M3 is moving to primarily awd.

I will fairly admit we won't really know how compromised the rwd variant is until is compared in an apples to apples scenario against the xdrive variant, it may be significant it may not be at all

Bmw does have a history of this type of reactionary sales management , like the 6MT on previous gen M5, US only with mismatched ratios and a compromised experience.
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      03-31-2019, 09:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
But when optimizing the suspension settings, software control, etc the development time was spent with xdrive. Which having the front wheels to engage and manage requires very different tuning. the ability to independently and intelligently vector torque front and rear in addition to side to side creates a much more complex set of variables to be solved for. If you followed this cars development (which based on your commentary you may not have) it was clear the vehicle was going to be xdrive only for every market. Then at the last minute bmw NA demanded a rwd drive variant because they thought they needed it to sell to consumers who were traditionalists and would not under any circumstance accept the superiority of the awd system. The business case was "in the US market we project X% of sales at risk due to lack of consumer appreciation for xdrive". But ultimately the car was optimized from day 1 to be xdrive so that is how I would make my choice. This is why the M5 is only awd (aside from hooligan burnout mode) and now M3 is moving to primarily awd.

I will fairly admit we won't really know how compromised the rwd variant is until is compared in an apples to apples scenario against the xdrive variant, it may be significant it may not be at all

Bmw does have a history of this type of reactionary sales management , like the 6MT on previous gen M5, US only with mismatched ratios and a compromised experience.
Simply too complicated when RWD and the same computer will get ya where ya need to go safely and with far less moving parts.

I live in NH. If I go back to a sedan...it will be a rear drive for the 10-20 days per year the roads are lousy from snow.

My X3M40i takes care of the snow roads
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      04-01-2019, 01:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
But when optimizing the suspension settings, software control, etc the development time was spent with xdrive. Which having the front wheels to engage and manage requires very different tuning. the ability to independently and intelligently vector torque front and rear in addition to side to side creates a much more complex set of variables to be solved for. If you followed this cars development (which based on your commentary you may not have) it was clear the vehicle was going to be xdrive only for every market. Then at the last minute bmw NA demanded a rwd drive variant because they thought they needed it to sell to consumers who were traditionalists and would not under any circumstance accept the superiority of the awd system. The business case was "in the US market we project X% of sales at risk due to lack of consumer appreciation for xdrive". But ultimately the car was optimized from day 1 to be xdrive so that is how I would make my choice. This is why the M5 is only awd (aside from hooligan burnout mode) and now M3 is moving to primarily awd.

I will fairly admit we won't really know how compromised the rwd variant is until is compared in an apples to apples scenario against the xdrive variant, it may be significant it may not be at all

Bmw does have a history of this type of reactionary sales management , like the 6MT on previous gen M5, US only with mismatched ratios and a compromised experience.
None of what you’re saying is true. Simply look at the part numbers for springs on a RWD 340 and compare it to the part number for the springs on an x-drive version. They are different to account for weight differences between the models and provide the right spring rates for the given application. BMW develops and optimizes each version individually. The parts are not the same across the board, nor is the programming of the electronics.

Not sure if you or someone else stated that the 330 x drive benefits from .3 second faster 0-60 than the RWD. The gap on the M340 is only .1 second. My guess is the 330 RWD did not have the limited slip diff which is standard on the M340i and pretty much eliminates the gap with awd

A properly balanced RWD car with limited slip and good tires can easily handle the power the M340 is putting out, AWD is not necessary at these power levels. If you need it for snow or whatever it’s a great feature, but absolutely should not be considered the default especially when a limited slip is standard.
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      04-01-2019, 05:55 AM   #16
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I'm considering replacing my E90 M3 with an M340i. I live in New England and never had a problem with driving it in the snow. Investing in a good set of snow tires with wheel rear drive is better than AWD with all season tires IMO.
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      04-01-2019, 07:10 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JH M3 View Post
I'm considering replacing my E90 M3 with an M340i. I live in New England and never had a problem with driving it in the snow. Investing in a good set of snow tires with wheel rear drive is better than AWD with all season tires IMO.
I don't agree that rwd with snow tires bests awd with all seasons, in all ways. The thing I've come to enjoy the most about awd is that you can almost always get moving again, which I can't say about rwd, regardless of tires. Braking in an awd isn't any better, and in messy conditions, one can certainly slip and slide with awd just like in rwd, but there's a lot to be said for being able to get going again after stopping at an incline on a snow covered road. It's the difference between getting home with as little drama as possible, and the alternative (having to be pushed, pulled, or sprinkling sand or kitty litter under the rear tires, desperate for added traction).

The other thing is, you can, and should outfit your awd with winter tires as well, at which point there's no debate.

The most important component, though, is the driver. I see plenty of awd suvs driving like clueless idiots during snow storms every winter. You see them fly by as if they're exempt from driving carefully on messy roads. Sadly, they're a statistic waiting to happen.
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      04-01-2019, 07:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZ F30 View Post
As someone who lives in a place where it almost never rains, I think I would be more inclined to get an M340i with RWD. However, I'm just curious to see if anyone would rather spec an M340i with AWD instead. If so, why?
If in the foreseeable future, you plan to live somewhere that gets little to no snow, go with rwd. If you live somewhere that can get accumulating snow from November to April, you can certainly benefit from awd.
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      04-01-2019, 07:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
But when optimizing the suspension settings, software control, etc the development time was spent with xdrive. Which having the front wheels to engage and manage requires very different tuning. the ability to independently and intelligently vector torque front and rear in addition to side to side creates a much more complex set of variables to be solved for. If you followed this cars development (which based on your commentary you may not have) it was clear the vehicle was going to be xdrive only for every market. Then at the last minute bmw NA demanded a rwd drive variant because they thought they needed it to sell to consumers who were traditionalists and would not under any circumstance accept the superiority of the awd system. The business case was "in the US market we project X% of sales at risk due to lack of consumer appreciation for xdrive". But ultimately the car was optimized from day 1 to be xdrive so that is how I would make my choice. This is why the M5 is only awd (aside from hooligan burnout mode) and now M3 is moving to primarily awd.

I will fairly admit we won't really know how compromised the rwd variant is until is compared in an apples to apples scenario against the xdrive variant, it may be significant it may not be at all

Bmw does have a history of this type of reactionary sales management , like the 6MT on previous gen M5, US only with mismatched ratios and a compromised experience.
I would be interested to know at what OEM you spent your career to come to this understanding of how vehicle development happens. It was not the case at the large one I did, nor others with which I came into contact. Let's start with some simple facts. RWD is the base condition for this platform in the US, Canada, Australia, UK, and France, just to name a few which can be checked quickly. From a vehicle development point of view, the actual mix of rwd/awd in production is irrelevant. Whether the plant builds one or all in either configuration, they all have to be designed, developed, certified, and released to the supply base and plant. Manufacturing Engineering will be interested in the mix they have to accomodate, as cycle times will vary by configuration.

I sense that the word "optimizing" is somehow exciting. This really just means that the more complex system, with more parts, more development needed, required BMW to do more work to essentially penalize the base platform with more weight, variable cost, and investment to accomodate XDrive. They did that, recoverable with revenue of the option price, and did it extremely well. They may have found some areas where they could commonize parts, but it is standard industry practice not to waste something like a bracket where it is not needed due to cost and weight unless the complexity in the plant outweighs those factors. Powertrain electronics engineers wrote more code because it was required. They did their homework to co-develop both configurations. The "optimization" fantasy may be entertaining, but has no actual meaning outside of each specific task that each configuration required, and both were attended to.

This entire story about "last minute" doesn't happen. And, even if BMWNA went from zero to some mix of RWD, which it didn't, RWD's presence in other markets makes it also irrelevant to the basic platform engineering task. We haven't even touched on the unique impact testing certification programs needed for each variant, a major long-term project in of itself. The platform was designed for both drive configurations starting from the ~4 years ago when the first CAD program was fired up to create the design. "Optimized" here really just means the platform was designed to allow for both configurations, with XDrive complicating the task a bit. Whichever international BMW subsidiary wishes to have whatever mix simply becomes a matter of production programming of that which Engineering has already planned to offer and have available. But, the markets also have to submit their plans with similar foresight so as not to waste resources later on with late changes...the bane of all engineering departments.

Romanticizing XDrive may have an appeal, but in reality, it was just one program variant from a widespread modular platform. One can comfortably purchase either configuration knowing that each represents the best overall set of attributes BMW AG can provide as a profitable OEM.
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      04-01-2019, 08:43 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
I don't agree that rwd with snow tires bests awd with all seasons, in all ways. The thing I've come to enjoy the most about awd is that you can almost always get moving again, which I can't say about rwd, regardless of tires. Braking in an awd isn't any better, and in messy conditions, one can certainly slip and slide with awd just like in rwd, but there's a lot to be said for being able to get going again after stopping at an incline on a snow covered road. It's the difference between getting home with as little drama as possible, and the alternative (having to be pushed, pulled, or sprinkling sand or kitty litter under the rear tires, desperate for added traction).

The other thing is, you can, and should outfit your awd with winter tires as well, at which point there's no debate.

The most important component, though, is the driver. I see plenty of awd suvs driving like clueless idiots during snow storms every winter. You see them fly by as if they're exempt from driving carefully on messy roads. Sadly, they're a statistic waiting to happen.
I have to agree with JHM3. My M4 with winter tires handled a lot better than my Q50 AWD with all seasons. Now that’s not to say, in all cases, but driving felt more stable in the M4, I’m sure it was a combo of things (ie LSD, etc...)

On the other hand, I had an easier time getting out of snow banks with the AWD system, which is to be expected. Once again, I’m talking about 3 inches or less, have to account for height clearance also.
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      04-01-2019, 12:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
RWD

The value of XDrive (when equipped with proper winter tires) will help get you going on snow/ice. If that is not a factor, the next possible benefit is helping get power to the ground by splitting it among 4 tires if the torque would overwhelm just two. I don't think we have much of that situation here either. I think I recall reading a benefit of .1 second to 60, which might interest the drag-race obsessed, assuming one pulls away from standstill at WOT very often.

Against that you incur:
  • reduced steering feel
  • more tendency to understeer
  • more purchase price
  • more maintenance cost
  • more fuel consumption

XDrive should be chosen if/when absolutely necessary, not as the default.
+ More weight
+ non staggered wheels
+ higher stance

Unless I lived in North Dakota or Minnesota or Canada I'd never look at xi
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      04-01-2019, 01:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT4life View Post
+ More weight
+ non staggered wheels
+ higher stance

Unless I lived in North Dakota or Minnesota or Canada I'd never look at xi
Isn't xDrive the same height as RWD for the G20?

I agree it's heavier.

Is BMW still doing staggered setup for RWD?
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