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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum
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Rear defroster not working :-(
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12-03-2019, 09:53 AM | #1 |
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Rear defroster not working :-(
Hello ladies and gents,
Looking for a little help diagnosing my 2009 E90 328 xdrive with just over 100K. I don't know when it stopped working but my rear defroster doesn't melt snow or get rid of fog and haven't noticed anything else not functioning correctly. It did work last winter though. Within the last couple thousand miles I replaced the original battery (because of rough/longer starts) with the same type from Advance Auto and registered it myself. I checked the two fuses (49/79 I believe) and they looked fine and not broken. When I press the defrost button, the light comes on and I can hear the switch engaging from the relay. Again, everything else seems to be working correctly so not sure what could be the issue. Any advice is appreciated! |
12-06-2019, 10:30 AM | #4 | |
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https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...window/haeyxn6 https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-lim/RjOLdgF https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-lim/Rl0xx8c Here is TIS procedure for removing C-pillar trim panel & components beneath: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...e-trap/FbGyLSQ https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...e-trap/FULB5UM Tests/ "DIAGNOSIS": 1) Check fuse F47, particularly since you listed two other fuses that don't appear applicable. 2) THEN, remove Right C-pillar trim panel & test for 12V+ at Black wire, Pin #1, Connector X18264 at Z1. 3) Test for 12V+ at Pin#1 of Connector X01058 on the other side of Z1. 4) Similarly, test for continuity to ground on either side of Z2 after removal of Left C-pillar trim panel. 5) Finally, test for resistance across the heating element of the rear window, between the two window element wires that connect to Z1 & Z2. Please let us know what you find, George |
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12-06-2019, 01:44 PM | #5 |
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12-06-2019, 04:20 PM | #6 |
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12-06-2019, 05:31 PM | #7 |
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12-06-2019, 06:13 PM | #8 |
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Apparently you don't know what a solution is. If he unplugs the IBS, the defroster will work. Problem solved.
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12-06-2019, 06:17 PM | #9 |
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12-06-2019, 10:52 PM | #11 |
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George, we had this discussion at length 2 years ago. If you want to know, go dig it up.
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12-07-2019, 12:01 AM | #12 | |
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12-08-2019, 10:28 AM | #13 | |
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My fuse card actually notes fuses 47 and 79. I was going by memory when I initially posted since I didn't have this card handy. Both do look good but maybe I'll change out 47. It seems that one isn't shared by other functions. |
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12-08-2019, 10:40 AM | #14 |
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Thanks for the entertainment, guys !
I know the IBS can be unplugged but really looking to SOLVE the issue and not just mask it. The two fuses don't look blown and I don't know why there would be a wiring issue and I hope a mouse didn't chew a wire somewhere. I'll try George's advice when it gets warmer and post back. I'll also try just switching out fuse 47 (maybe it broke where it's not visible ). Regardless, any advice is appreciated! |
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12-08-2019, 12:42 PM | #15 | |
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https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...window/haeyxn6 I did NOT discuss the RELAY, K13, which is switched by the On/Off button on the Climate Control Panel, but if that relay is NOT operating, there will be NO voltage at the fuse socket #47 with ignition on & Button lighted. Unfortunately I do NOT find anything in either Bentley or TIS that indicates WHERE that Relay K13 is LOCATED on E9x built 3/2007 & Later, such as yours & mine. For builds BEFORE 3/2007, K13 is located on the lower left of the Fuse Panel (JB), just below the front wiper relays. There is NO RELAY mounted externally in that position on my 3/14/2007 build E91. Here is a link to the TIS K13 "Installation Location" -- for <3/2007 models. My hunch is that relay is soldered to the JB circuit board (inside the JB case) on E9x built AFTER 3/2007: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-lim/RLRb8pe ANYONE (particularly those previously posting to this thread ;-) who KNOWS where K13 is located on E9x built 3/2007 & Later? FWIW, Bentley Fuse Chart for models built AFTER 8/2007 (2008 & Later Models), shows F47 powering the Rear Window Defogger, and F79 as "Wiper Control." Bentley has a better fuse chart than the tri-fold which is found on the glove box panel, and I will attach 2 jpg pages to the next post so as NOT to mess up the margins of this post, along with photo of my 3/14/2007 JB layout. People "playing along at home" should realize that the LAYOUT of the JB fuse panel changed significantly effective 3/1/2007 build date, and the later 2007 models built BETWEEN 3/1/2007 & 8/2007 had the NEW layout which was continued in the 2008 & Later Models. HOWEVER, the Late 2007 models had a different (and conFUSE-ing ;-) numbering system. That numbering system was CHANGED effective 9/1/2007 for 2008 & later models. Moral to the story, make SURE you are referring to the CORRECT Fuse Chart, and keep those THREE different iterations in mind. You will see TIS uses the following THREE designations: (1) "-2007/02" -- for 2006 & Early 2007 Models; (2) "2007/03 - 2007/08" -- for LATE 2007 Models; (3) "2007/09+" -- for 2008 & LATER Models; There were OTHER electrical system changes at other dates, but the above appear to be the change dates for JB Configuration/Layout & Fuse Numbering Convention changes. Please let us know what you find. I promise NOT to hi-jack your thread with (1) Power Management & "Electric Load Reduction -- Engine Running" discussions (see p.34 of "BMW Voltage Supply & Bus Systems" Training Manual) and/or (2) Battery "Registration", Type & Capacity Coding, Histogram Reset discussions. Suffice it to say that there appears to be a Web Legend that BMW's have magical, undocumented powers with electricity, particularly as it relates to the Battery, Power Management, and the IBS. IF you replaced old battery with NEW Battery of (A) Same Type (FLA vs. AGM), and (B) Same Capacity (Ah or RC), then NO "Registration, Coding, Reset", NOR Incense Burning, Exorcism, or Incantations of ANY Nature, are required. George |
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12-08-2019, 12:53 PM | #16 |
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Here are Bentley Fuse Charts (2 pages) for 2008 & Later E9x models;
These are found at Bentley Sections ECL-23 & ECL-24; pdf pp.936 & 937; Also attached is photo of my 3/14/2007 build E91 JB Fuse Panel, showing NO external K13 below the Green Wiper Relays: George |
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12-08-2019, 08:15 PM | #18 | |
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The power management system DOES switch off the heated rear window, along with other things like heated seats, mirrors and will also restrict interior fan speedif the battery is in poor condition. I know this for a FACT from working on these cars for 12 years, and having seen the problem and fixing it first hand. https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...supply/1tXfVgc https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...supply/2PX46Us If you still thinks it's all a myth, god help you. You are very good at reading manuals and quoting them, and you do bring a lot to this forum with the time you spend helping people. But you have little practical knowledge. Lots of theoretical though, which is great. If somebody else has a different opinion to you, doesn't mean you should be a dick and try and berate what they have offered. This forum is about helping people. I was merely pointing out another possibility, not "hijacking the thread" that's just ludicrous. Like i said in my first post, it may not be this, it may well be a fuse or wiring issue, so not sure why you chose to run that down, but whatever mows your lawn i guess. I'm not being drawn into anymore debate on this subject. Last edited by N52bigblock; 12-08-2019 at 08:39 PM.. |
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12-09-2019, 12:36 AM | #19 | ||
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The task is to try NOT to be arrogant or disrespectful. Apparently I failed. Please accept my apology, and feel free to suggest what you believe I should change. Now, since "this Forum is about helping people, and I'm here to learn as well as try to help, I would appreciate any concepts (preferably with references ;-) related to the following QUESTIONS: 1) How does the Power Management Module of the DME, which receives input from the IBS related to Battery Voltage, and current flow INTO the battery from the Alternator, and OUT OF the battery to electrical loads, reduce current draw of the devices listed on page 34 of the attached TM, or shut them down completely if required, DURING ENGINE/ALTERNATOR OPERATION? Is that via signals to the JBE via the bus system? 2) Once an "electrical consumer" listed on that page 34 has had it's speed or current draw reduced, or cut off entirely, WHAT is necessary to RESTORE normal current flow to that "consumer?" 3) Is some "Reset" procedure required, or does the component/consumer get normal current flow restored (a) as soon as more current is going INTO the battery (charging) than is going OUT OF the battery (discharging)? (b) Only upon restart or charging the battery to a certain Voltage? 4) If there were some "Reset" procedure to restore current flow to that "Consumer", as opposed to flow returning automatically when low battery charge/voltage was NO LONGER DETECTED, I would think BMW would have instructed its Techs in TM's or otherwise, EXACTLY how to do that. 5) Is there a secret Neil? Are you holding out on us? Sorry, the devil made me do that. OP clearly stated in his first post in this thread that he replaced his "original battery" with one of "same type" and "registered" it. Hence my question re WHY disconnecting IBS could "Solve" OP's lack of Rear Window Defogger operation. I HAVE been known to be dense, so if you believe I'm missing something, or can provide answers to the questions above, please enlighten me. From the questions he asked, it appears "jhah 135", the OP, would also appreciate that information. BTW, "are we now saying" that if OP merely disconnects the BLUE connector where the IBS attaches to the BSD Bus connector going to the DME, THAT will restore Rear Window Defogger operation??? NO-Brainer OP -- JUST DO IT!! (and PLEASE report the result ;-) George |
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12-10-2019, 08:53 PM | #20 | |
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Last edited by jhah135; 12-10-2019 at 09:23 PM.. |
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12-11-2019, 12:19 AM | #21 | |
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BMW Standard Tools: Battery Registration (DME), CAS Coding, Histogram Reset (DME)
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While Director Wray was NOT talking about Batterietausch Registrieren = Register Replacement Battery, there ARE "all kinds of people" saying "all kinds of things" about "Battery Registration" on the Web and the forums. That term is generally used for ANY change of settings (coding), Histogram Reset (Initialization), or actual "Registration" which is nothing more than entering the current mileage/km shown on the odometer when the "Batterietausch Registrieren" button is pushed."Well, look, there’s all kinds of people saying all kinds of things out there. I think it’s important for the American people [and BMW owners ] to be thoughtful consumers of information and to think about the sources of it and to think about the support and predication for what they hear.” I would invite ANYONE to share his experience & observations who has actually USED INPA, NCS or ISTA to do ANY of the functions any of those software applications are able to do with regard to: (1) Battery Registration (INPA); (2) Histogram Reset (INPA); (3) Coding change (using NCS) if Battery of different (a) TYPE or (b) CAPACITY is installed; INPA will display the current setting, but NOT CHANGE that setting. So I'll share what I have learned solely from my own use of BMW Standard Tools, namely INPA & NCS Dummy. I'll attach example screens from INPA or NCS so you can see what the program screen actually shows, and REPEAT my own theory (which is based upon statements on the Bimmerfest Forum of a BMW-trained Tech & Shop Owner, BMW-North). I'll attach INPA & NCS Screenprints to next post to avoid messing up margins here. All INPA Screens and Module Menu Paths are those for my 3/14/2007 328xi E91. 1) REGISTER: In INPA: DME > F5 Status > F5 PM (PowerManagement Module) > F5 Batterietausch registrieren (Register Replacement Battery): This Function ONLY enters the Odometer km reading that exists at the moment the F5 Function Key is pressed. It is ONLY an INFORMATIONAL Reference for a tech who knows to look for that "Text Field," and it has NOTHING to do with the way the battery is charged or how the IBS functions. Simply to have the vehicle carry all maintenance data of which it is capable, Register the Replacment Battery (cause kilometer reading in the Odometer to be entered in text field), so that future tech reference will know MILEAGE(km), NOT DATE, at which replacement done. Your battery sticker & receipt will be your proof of purchase & purchase date should warranty replacement of new battery be required. 2) HISTOGRAM: INPA: DME: F5 Status > F5 PM > F6 Histogram Reset: This Function clears the 5 Histogram entries; while helpful to do this if you have the proper software to "Reset Histogram", it is NOT necessary, as the Histogram is "updated" at every start or every day (NOT sure which). The value "vor 5 Tagen" = "5 days ago" is deleted and the other 4 days move DOWN one spot, so that after 5 days, ALL the histogram data that existed on the date you replaced the battery has been over-written, whether you "Reset Histogram" or NOT. 3) CODE or OPTION for Type/Capacity: INPA: DME: F5 Status > F5 PM > F3 PM InfoField 2, Batterie Kapazitat in Ah (Battery Capacity in AmpHours); INPA ONLY DISPLAYS the current coding or capacity option selected in the option list. Using BMW Standard Tools (of which INPA is ONE of the programs) you have to use NCS to CHANGE the setting you see in INPA -- INPA CANNOT change the setting. To CHANGE Type/Capacity, using NCS you need to go to CAS Module and scroll down to "KLASSE_BATTERIE - BATTERY TYPE," and select option closest to your capacity for that TYPE of battery. So if you replace a Flooded Lead Acid Battery of 90 Ah capacity with another FLA of same capacity, you don't need to do ANYTHING. Personally I would check to make sure the "Batterie Kapazitat" currently selected (which you can view in either INPA or NCS) is correct, particularly if the battery you are replacing is NOT the original. These days batteries such as the Walmart EverStart Maxx, Group H8/49, don't have Ah or RC Capacity ratings on any label or marking, unless it's in a code somewhere stamped on the case, so it's hard to know what capacity to select. Since the only data available on the H8 I bought was 900 CCA, 1000 CA & H8 (largest case that will fit), I simply kept the existing 90Ah capacity setting. If anyone is aware of anything other than the three Functions described above that need to be Considered, Viewed or Changed, please advise, and indicate WHAT Software is used to view, reset or set/code that Value, and its NAME as identified in the software. I am NOT an authority on BMW, having owned one for less than 3 years, but I HAVE spent a LOT of time in the last 2 years using INPA and saving screens by Module and translating them using Google Translate, so I have a rather comprehensive list of WHAT can be done using, or what data is shown by, each screen. I'm simply trying to share my observations, AND seek input or correction from anyone having additional/different information or concepts. Thanks, George Last edited by gbalthrop; 12-11-2019 at 11:06 AM.. |
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12-11-2019, 01:32 AM | #22 |
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INPA Screens, MSV80 DME, F5 PM (PowerManagement)
INPA & NCS DUMMY ScreenPrints Attached:
1) MSV80 PM MainMenu (Hauptmenu) 2) F1 Indentification Battery Sensor 3) F2 PM InfoField 1 "letzter Batteritausch bei km 146260.00" Last Battery Replacement at 146260 km4) F3 PM InfoField 2 "Batterie Kapazitat in Ah" 90.00 Battery Capacity in Amp hours 90 Ah; ALSO Histogram Data (Old Battery)5) NCS Dummy CAS Module KLASSE_BATTERIE - BATTERY TYPE; Select closest value to Actual Ah Capacity of Replacement Battery George |
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