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      10-15-2020, 08:01 PM   #1
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M2 CS Tire Size

I'm disappointed that the rear stock tire are still at 265. Does anyone have insight why BMW has been keeping the tires slim even for the M3 despite all the torque going to the rear wheel. I see all other brands fitting much wider tires stock, which does translate into better ability to put power down at corner exit.
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      10-15-2020, 10:50 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife View Post
I'm disappointed that the rear stock tire are still at 265. Does anyone have insight why BMW has been keeping the tires slim even for the M3 despite all the torque going to the rear wheel. I see all other brands fitting much wider tires stock, which does translate into better ability to put power down at corner exit.
F80 M3 comp has a 265 front and 285 rear tire
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      10-16-2020, 09:17 AM   #3
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I know but that's still not wide enough given the torque specially in the CS which I drive atm. I think the 265 rear tires is why BMW did not increase the torque on the M2CS.
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      10-16-2020, 10:05 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife View Post
I'm disappointed that the rear stock tire are still at 265. Does anyone have insight why BMW has been keeping the tires slim even for the M3 despite all the torque going to the rear wheel. I see all other brands fitting much wider tires stock, which does translate into better ability to put power down at corner exit.
To have a playful car on the backroads...
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      10-16-2020, 12:15 PM   #5
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This is the exact same stock tire size as my 1M, and I ultimately went with a 255 front / 275 rear set up on the stock wheels. Interestingly, the slightly increased diameter of the tires made the speedometer precisely accurate whenever I do a radar check. From the factory, the speedometer always read a little high. I will probably do the same thing when the time comes to replace the original tires on the CS.
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      10-16-2020, 01:13 PM   #6
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1. Deals were made for specific tires for this platform.
2. If you think you're guaranteed to get the power to the ground better with a bigger, heavier tire, you're wrong. If you want to get the power down better, lower the pressure, and/or choose a different tire.
3. The 245/265 combo gives the best overall performance for the car, all things considered. Bigger isn't always better.
4. The correct larger size for the car would be 265/30 & 285/30, and the PSS isn't made in 265/30.
5. Tires are cheap, buy bigger ones and figure out what BMW already knows...
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      10-16-2020, 02:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
1. Deals were made for specific tires for this platform.
2. If you think you're guaranteed to get the power to the ground better with a bigger, heavier tire, you're wrong. If you want to get the power down better, lower the pressure, and/or choose a different tire.
3. The 245/265 combo gives the best overall performance for the car, all things considered. Bigger isn't always better.
4. The correct larger size for the car would be 265/30 & 285/30, and the PSS isn't made in 265/30.
5. Tires are cheap, buy bigger ones and figure out what BMW already knows...
Dedicated thread about M2/M2C tire size increase: here.

See also this overview by forum fellow mToronto:



My former M2 and current M2C setup: Michelin PS4S | 255/35 R19 (F) | 275/35 R19 (R) (i.e. 1 size up):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
It's all kinda subjective. I upscaled PSS to PS4S in 2017. Especially wet-handling got improved (improved safety too). When I upscaled PS4S 1 size in 2019 (from 245/35 R19 + 265/35 R19 to 255/35 R19 + 275/35 R19), I also upscaled from 437M to 763M wheels. That complicates (subjective) comparisons.
But here's what I can say: especially once up to temp, DSC nannies are quieter than ever (especially when accelerating out of hairpins) and the set gets you a fraction more grip. Turn-in improved, but for sure the credit for that mainly belongs to 763M (reduced unsprung weight / rotational mass).
As regards technical control of vehicles: upscaling from 245/265 to 255/275 stays within the 'tolerances' band, and, hence, gets a pass over here.
In my book (city + highway + mountain driving), 255/275 PS4S + 763M wins.
A couple of videos about the PS4S tires:
  • PSS vs PS4S (2017): here
  • PS4S vs Cup2 (2018): here
  • PS4 vs PS4S vs Cup2 (2018): here
  • PS4S vs Continental SportContact 6 vs Eagle F1 SuperSport (2019): here
Do wider tyres give you more grip ? (conclusion: from 09:41 onwards):
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      10-16-2020, 02:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
As regards technical control of vehicles: upscaling from 245/265 to 255/275 stays within the 'tolerances' band, and, hence, gets a pass over here. In my book (city + highway + mountain driving), 255/275 PS4S + 763M wins.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

If you look closely at the specs vs OE you'll see that the 255/275/35 combo is heavier, the front is only .1" bigger while the rear is .4" bigger...and both tires are taller.

I'll take the lighter set with the factory width difference front-to-rear myself, as I like the playful nature of the car and don't need pothole protection.

It's just too bad that Michelin doesn't make the PS4S in the proper upgrade size, which is 265/30 & 285/30.
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      10-18-2020, 05:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

If you look closely at the specs vs OE you'll see that the 255/275/35 combo is heavier, the front is only .1" bigger while the rear is .4" bigger...and both tires are taller.

I'll take the lighter set with the factory width difference front-to-rear myself, as I like the playful nature of the car and don't need pothole protection.

It's just too bad that Michelin doesn't make the PS4S in the proper upgrade size, which is 265/30 & 285/30.
I appreciate the playful nature of BMWs, but if the CS is for track use I excepted a little better and that's for both the M3 and M2. In general, Mustangs GT350, Camaro SS, Porches all have wider tire on similar power and torque and I see them gaining an advantage on the track.
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      10-18-2020, 08:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnerforlife View Post
I appreciate the playful nature of BMWs, but if the CS is for track use I excepted a little better and that's for both the M3 and M2. In general, Mustangs GT350, Camaro SS, Porches all have wider tire on similar power and torque and I see them gaining an advantage on the track.
Read closer. .1" wider in the front and .4" wider in the rear creates more understeer.

Once again, if you're going to do it, do it right; 265/30 & 285/30.
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      10-19-2020, 07:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
Read closer. .1" wider in the front and .4" wider in the rear creates more understeer.

Once again, if you're going to do it, do it right; 265/30 & 285/30.
It depends on the exact tire though, tread widths vary between them even in the stock sizes.

The Cup 2 in the stock sizes have a tread width of 8.7" and 9.5"
The PSS in the stock sizes are 8.8" and 9.4"
The PS4S in the stocks sizes are 8.6" and 9.6"

Moving to the 255-275/35/19 setup, the PS4S are 8.9" and 9.8"
For my winter setup with DWS 06s in that size they're 9" and 9.6"
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      10-19-2020, 08:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
It depends on the exact tire though, tread widths vary between them even in the stock sizes.

The Cup 2 in the stock sizes have a tread width of 8.7" and 9.5"
The PSS in the stock sizes are 8.8" and 9.4"
The PS4S in the stocks sizes are 8.6" and 9.6"

Moving to the 255-275/35/19 setup, the PS4S are 8.9" and 9.8"
For my winter setup with DWS 06s in that size they're 9" and 9.6"
And taking this a step further....The nanny system is designed with the factory setup. If track driving with TC off, then fit what works best. Off track keep in mind that the system was tuned for a given character. I'm not saying it's the best it can be for a given application, but food for thought when planning changes.
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      10-19-2020, 08:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
It depends on the exact tire though, tread widths vary between them even in the stock sizes.

The Cup 2 in the stock sizes have a tread width of 8.7" and 9.5"
The PSS in the stock sizes are 8.8" and 9.4"
The PS4S in the stocks sizes are 8.6" and 9.6"

Moving to the 255-275/35/19 setup, the PS4S are 8.9" and 9.8"
For my winter setup with DWS 06s in that size they're 9" and 9.6"
LOL

You're telling me??

Check my posts lol
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      10-19-2020, 10:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
It depends on the exact tire though, tread widths vary between them even in the stock sizes.

The Cup 2 in the stock sizes have a tread width of 8.7" and 9.5"
The PSS in the stock sizes are 8.8" and 9.4"
The PS4S in the stocks sizes are 8.6" and 9.6"

Moving to the 255-275/35/19 setup, the PS4S are 8.9" and 9.8"
For my winter setup with DWS 06s in that size they're 9" and 9.6"
Note that there is no industry standard for tread width; hence take any number for that value with a grain of salt at best. With modern performance tires, the question of where the tread ends and the sidewall begins merges quickly into a subjective call in many cases. The BFG Rival was an early example of that extreme.

The only spec standard by the US TRA that manufacturers have to meet is section width and diameter; and the procedure for those two measurements is precisely spelled out in the TRA Year Book document. As long as a tire is within the spec range for section width and diameter for a given size, it meets all requirements to be called a tire of that size.

Hence "tread width" is totally free of specification requirements in addition to being totally free of any industry standard method of measurement.

Therefore the reason why in the extremes of various tires, specifically DOT-R-compound type tires, some crazy things happen, particularly where a tire like the BFG R1 has an observed tread width essentially equal to its section width and therefore rubs where a "normal" same sized tire clears easily. Well, I say normal to include other R-comps of the same size like a Hoosier R6/R7 which has the more typical rounded section width taper to tread face.
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      10-20-2020, 12:13 PM   #15
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If going one size up bothers you for whatever reason, then keep it stock size (245/35 R19 (F) + 265/35 R19 (R)). It's perfectly OK.

FWIW: here's the setup on my M2C (and IMHO fit for purpose for my use) (no rubbing - no iDrive error messages):


Fresh rubber - Front (PS4S - 255/35 R19):


Fresh rubber - Rear (PS4S - 275/35 R19):


Recently at night somewhere on a calm German Autobahn:
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      10-24-2020, 07:38 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
1. Deals were made for specific tires for this platform.
2. If you think you're guaranteed to get the power to the ground better with a bigger, heavier tire, you're wrong. If you want to get the power down better, lower the pressure, and/or choose a different tire.
3. The 245/265 combo gives the best overall performance for the car, all things considered. Bigger isn't always better.
4. The correct larger size for the car would be 265/30 & 285/30, and the PSS isn't made in 265/30.
5. Tires are cheap, buy bigger ones and figure out what BMW already knows...
BMW working with Michelin when they develop the tires for the car can have pretty much anything they want. Saying that a specific size is not offered by the tire manufacturer is therefore a moot point.

Also, the generic dimensions are pretty meaningless as tread width can vary quite significantly between specs even for a given tire size. Tread width is much more important to grip than section width. TireRack use the same methodology to measure tread width on all tires, so it does provide a decent perspective.

And yes, a wider tire can offer more grip and the F8X definitely benefits from wider tires. When I first got my 2015 M4, I went for a square 275/35R18 track setup to allow rotation (I had square setups on my E46 and E92). I could not fully leverage the mid range torque of the S55 on corner exit with the 275. I swithed to wider rear wheels to fit 305 rear tires and improved my lap times by well over a second.
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 10-24-2020 at 07:46 AM..
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      10-24-2020, 07:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
BMW working with Michelin when they develop the tires for the car can have pretty much anything they want. Saying that a specific size is not offered by the tire manufacturer is therefore a moot point.
That's incorrect. BMW can change the compound, and add a pretty star, but they can't add sizes. It's actually quite difficult to make that happen, and in recent years it's only the extremely high-end manufacturers like Singer that have been able to get it done (at significant cost for the privilege).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Also, the generic dimensions are pretty meaningless as tread width can vary quite significantly between specs even for a given tire size. The 245-265 PSC2 have a slightly wider tread than the 245-265 PSS.
Incorrect again. See my attachment. The Cup 2 front TW is -.1 and the rear is +.1, which is as-near-as-makes-no-difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
And yes, a wider tire can offer more grip and the F8X definitely benefits from wider tires.
Only cornering grip, and there is always a trade-off, as the balance of the car always changes, and the unsprung weight goes up as well. No such thing as just slapping on a wider tire and getting better overall performance.

I'm certain that BMW had all manner of tires available to them when they were tweaking the car for the best overall performance, and the PSS in 245/265 worked best. It also continues to be the best to this day, just in the form of the revised PS4S.
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      10-24-2020, 08:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
That's incorrect. BMW can change the compound, and add a pretty star, but they can't add sizes. It's actually quite difficult to make that happen, and in recent years it's only the extremely high-end manufacturers like Singer that have been able to get it done (at significant cost for the privilege).

Incorrect again. See my attachment. The Cup 2 front TW is -.1 and the rear is +.1, which is as-near-as-makes-no-difference.

Only cornering grip, and there is always a trade-off, as the balance of the car always changes, and the unsprung weight goes up as well. No such thing as just slapping on a wider tire and getting better overall performance.

I'm certain that BMW had all manner of tires available to them when they were tweaking the car for the best overall performance, and the PSS in 245/265 worked best. It also continues to be the best to this day, just in the form of the revised PS4S.
Yes, I later revised my comment about the CS PSC2 tread width, realizing they were not necessarily wider. The 265-285 PSC2 on the M4cs are ~0.5 wider than the CP 265-285 PSS, I had wrongly assumed the same for the M2cs.

I think BMW selection is mostly how to achieve an overall compromise between dry grip, wet grip, regulation and fuel consumption/emissions. They indeed have an "infinite" array to chose from as the the tires are specifically developed for the chassis. There is no 265/30R20 because there was no market need for one. If a manufacturer wanted one, Michelin would have made one.
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      10-24-2020, 10:14 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
There is no 265/30R20 because there was no market need for one. If a manufacturer wanted one, Michelin would have made one.
There may be a market for the tire, it's just not big enough to warrant the cost to produce it. Damn actuaries, they ruin everything.
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      10-24-2020, 11:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VisualEcho View Post
I'm certain that BMW had all manner of tires available to them when they were tweaking the car for the best overall performance, and the PSS in 245/265 worked best. It also continues to be the best to this day, just in the form of the revised PS4S.
IMHO, for the M2 CS the PS4S would have been a better choice than the PSS.


And what about the G80 M3 and G82 M4 ? Demo cars sported PSS, PS4S and Pirelli P Zero:
  • base: 275/40 ZR18 (F) + 285/35 ZR19 (R)
  • Competition: 275/35 ZR19 (F) + 285/30 ZR20 (R)
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      10-24-2020, 12:16 PM   #21
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IMHO, for the M2 CS the PS4S would have been a better choice than the PSS.
Of course, I agree, but deals will be deals. One of the reasons BMW buys these top level tires for so cheap is because of their loyalty to the deal, it's pretty much legendary.

Buying a CS I'd sparing for another set of 763M's with some Trofeo R's for Summer, and use the stock wheels with some PS4S for daily driving. I'd also have a 3rd set of 763's in a custom color wearing 888R's just for photography. I mean, if you've got the coin for a CS, why not??

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      10-24-2020, 04:46 PM   #22
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