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      02-12-2021, 07:23 PM   #1
CklSpeciale
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M Steptronic vs M DCT

I really like how the last-gen DCT feels, in a way which is quick and aggressive, especially the voilent part. I know the new ZF will be a great transmission, but to those of you who had chances driving a M5/M8, how does it compare to the old DCT? Are they equally fun?
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      02-12-2021, 07:38 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by CklSpeciale View Post
I really like how the last-gen DCT feels, in a way which is quick and aggressive, especially the voilent part. I know the new ZF will be a great transmission, but to those of you who had chances driving a M5/M8, how does it compare to the old DCT? Are they equally fun?
One, two, three moved to one of the many DCT lover threads, hopefully
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      02-12-2021, 09:42 PM   #3
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I just went from the DCT in my F80 to the ZF8 in my F92 a few weeks ago. Hard to compare with the M8 being such a heavy car, so I can't really toss it around as much, plus the V8 is a much tamer animal in general with a lower redline, less turbo lag, etc., but the ZF is really lightning quick on the upshifts.

Winding up through the gears in full auto mode feels quick, effortless, and just perfect, definitely superior to the DCT here. I'd say my DCT was a bit less predictable, I'd get the occasional violent upshift into 2nd or 3rd, which is dramatic, but that just translates to being inefficient/slow.

Downshifts are certainly where I miss the DCT, but like I said, likely more of a result of the car itself than the transmission. I feel like I want the car to downshift earlier when braking, but I also feel like I want it to hit 8000 rpm at those times, so that not going to happen no matter how hard I pull the paddle or stomp on the brake. When it does happen just where I want it to, it's pretty magnificent.
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      02-12-2021, 10:31 PM   #4
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I have an X3MC and the M-ZF8 is better than M-DCT in normal driving, barely not as good when flogging it. But it doesn't matter, because it's what you get if you want an M car now that isn't a manual. Honestly you barely notice the difference.
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      02-13-2021, 06:56 AM   #5
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I have M5C and M3CS in the garage
I have never driven the M5 and said , I wish it has the DCT or the transmission is not acceptable
so basically I don't perceive any significant difference
I am sure some experts here will beat up on that , but this is my experience
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      02-13-2021, 07:40 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by M3PGH View Post
I have M5C and M3CS in the garage
I have never driven the M5 and said , I wish it has the DCT or the transmission is not acceptable
so basically I don't perceive any significant difference
I am sure some experts here will beat up on that , but this is my experience
Agreed

I went F82 —> F90 —> F98
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      02-13-2021, 01:54 PM   #7
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For me DCT is far superior and is one of the reasons, I am going to leave BMW being with the brand since 1991. I hated the ZF in the M5, have now driven an F90 three times and the transmission spoils the experience when trying to drive fast shifting manually. So slow in reaction on upshifts, its not even funny.
I thought of waiting for the G80/82 but after the last drive in the M5 I am done. Next week I am going to order a rwd Taycan, which is much slower car than my F80 Comp but don't care. I drove the 4S twice and was more impressed with the overall experience than ever in a 911. I have driven hundreds of cars and remember only once being as impressed as with the Taycan 4S and that was when I firstly drove the E60 M5 with its incredible engine. E39 M5 was close but no standard 911 or 911 Turbo has been as fun as the Taycan.
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      02-13-2021, 03:13 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Puuhapete View Post
For me DCT is far superior and is one of the reasons, I am going to leave BMW being with the brand since 1991. I hated the ZF in the M5, have now driven an F90 three times and the transmission spoils the experience when trying to drive fast shifting manually. So slow in reaction on upshifts, its not even funny.
I thought of waiting for the G80/82 but after the last drive in the M5 I am done. Next week I am going to order a rwd Taycan, which is much slower car than my F80 Comp but don't care. I drove the 4S twice and was more impressed with the overall experience than ever in a 911. I have driven hundreds of cars and remember only once being as impressed as with the Taycan 4S and that was when I firstly drove the E60 M5 with its incredible engine. E39 M5 was close but no standard 911 or 911 Turbo has been as fun as the Taycan.
Goes to show that for some at least even 5000 lbs is not a receipe for driving experience failure. The svelt 3900 lbs G8X should do just fine...
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      02-13-2021, 03:39 PM   #9
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Goes to show that for some at least even 5000 lbs is not a receipe for driving experience failure. The svelt 3900 lbs G8X should do just fine...
Its actually incredible how light the Taycan feels. It is so planted and turns into corners like a much smaller car. And the steering is way better than in my F80. And that 4S did not have 4-wheel steering.

I don't think the weight is the problem on the G8X, the biggest problem for me is the transmission and the price actually too. In our country the starting price for the base Taycan is 40k eur lower than the G8X. And the 4S starts 20k lower at about the same performance as the G8X. It felt like a 3.5sec / 11.5sec car.
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      02-13-2021, 04:53 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Puuhapete View Post
Its actually incredible how light the Taycan feels. It is so planted and turns into corners like a much smaller car. And the steering is way better than in my F80. And that 4S did not have 4-wheel steering.

I don't think the weight is the problem on the G8X, the biggest problem for me is the transmission and the price actually too. In our country the starting price for the base Taycan is 40k eur lower than the G8X. And the 4S starts 20k lower at about the same performance as the G8X. It felt like a 3.5sec / 11.5sec car.
Your country is next to my original homeland

I’m not surprised over the BEV preferential treatment hearing from my family how cars are treated with environmental taxes etc. Many of my childhood friends who I used to discuss Akra pipes, cylinder bore, piston speed etc with are now mostly discussing the tax classes and EV range...

I’ve owned cars with the non M ZF8 and the Getrag 6sp AT before it and know I’ll be ok with them. The M-DCT I had was nice on the track but today it feels ancient and uncivilized vs the like of the PDK. If I had to choose between the M-DCT and the latest ZF I’ll take ZF.

ZF8: Great for daily use, acceptable on the track.
M-DCT: Great on track, acceptable for daily use.
6MT: Awesome on both but my wife has grown too lazy for it . As anyone over 40 that has grown up in a practically MT only country she drives it better than most Americans. Just don’t want to anymore.

The G8X will be 100% daily use the first two years for us and then maybe 25/75 depending on many things.
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      02-13-2021, 05:08 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Your country is next to my original homeland

I’m not surprised over the BEV preferential treatment hearing from my family how cars are treated with environmental taxes etc. Many of my childhood friends who I used to discuss Akra pipes, cylinder bore, piston speed etc with are now mostly discussing the classes and EV range...

I’ve owned cars with the non M ZF8 and the Getrag 6sp AT before it and know I’ll be ok with them. The M-DCT I had was nice on the track but today it feels ancient and uncivilized vs the like of the PDK. If I had to choose between the M-DCT and the latest ZF I’ll take ZF.

ZF8: Great for daily use, acceptable on the track.
M-DCT: Great on track, acceptable for daily use.
6MT: Awesome on both but my wife has grown too lazy for it . As anyone over 40 that has grown up in a practically MT only country she drives it better than most Americans. Just don’t want to anymore.

The G8X will be 100% daily use the first two years for us and then maybe 25/75 depending on many things.
You are from Sweden?

It will be interesting to see how the G8X will be in real life and also the performance numbers. I will always have my love for BMW as I am grown up with that brand. Both my E92 M3 and this F80 have been a joy to drive and also all the BMW:s before those. And my wifes car is a X1 hybrid, which I think for the money is the best car we have ever had. It also does not feel heavy at all. I really enjoy driving that. If only the gearshaft would be smaller and more stylish, it would be perfect.
Its interesting to see, if I ever go back to petrol cars. I would really enjoy a third car cabriolet like a Z4 f.ex. but we do not have the space.

In normal driving the ZF8 is great I have no doubt about that. I would probably use the auto also on track as it felt impossible for me to hit the gears in the right moment on the M5.
Actually I forgot one great experience when driving a new model and that was 2-3 years ago when I drove the M3 CS. I was really close to buy it but it was just too expensive even used. Top 3 car I ever have driven, I liked it much more than a M3 CSL back in the days.

You have ordered your new M3/M4 already?
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      02-13-2021, 05:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Puuhapete View Post
You are from Sweden?
You have ordered your new M3/M4 already?
Yes, born there and lived there the first 30 years of my life. My dad was a semi-pro rallye/rallycross driver in his youth, not on Mikkola level though
Worked for Volvo, fixing Volvo Penta engines for VIP folks and got free access to race cars and service.

No, currently leaning 992 Carrera. Drove it a few months ago and absolutely adored it in every way.

We do kind of need the practicality and space of the G8X though and haven’t decided yet. Need to drive it or at a minimum see what the very best reviewers think about it. But I’m not sure if we will be patient enough, my wife keep saying on a weekly sometimes daily basis:

Let’s just order the 992 now.

Getting harder and harder to hold back.
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      02-13-2021, 05:45 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Yes, born there and lived there the first 30 years of my life. My dad was a semi-pro rallye/rallycross driver in his youth, not on Mikkola level though
Worked for Volvo, fixing Volvo Penta engines for VIP folks and got free access to race cars and service.

No, currently leaning 992 Carrera. Drove it a few months ago and absolutely adored it in every way.

We do kind of need the practicality and space of the G8X though and haven’t decided yet. Need to drive it or at a minimum see what the very best reviewers think about it. But I’m not sure if we will be patient enough, my wife keep saying on a weekly sometimes daily basis:

Let’s just order the 992 now.

Getting harder and harder to hold back.
You have the same itch on the 911 as I have on the Taycan
Its actually strange for me with the 911:s. I have driven maybe 12 different models and still the best feeling I got out of the 1979 or 1980 model. I don't remember the horsepowers but around 200 probably. It felt so raw I really liked it. The newer ones just don't do it for me of some reason. I am not talking about GT2 or GT3 RS, they are probably the finest you can buy (have never driven either) but the normal ones. If I could choose from the 992 range, I would probably take the Carrera S as I prefer rwd. Definitely not the Turbo, I did not feel connected with that car at all. Its crazy to say that with that 2200 kg Taycan I felt way more connection.

You surely have motorsport in your genes
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      02-13-2021, 06:42 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Puuhapete View Post
You have the same itch on the 911 as I have on the Taycan
Its actually strange for me with the 911:s. I have driven maybe 12 different models and still the best feeling I got out of the 1979 or 1980 model. I don't remember the horsepowers but around 200 probably. It felt so raw I really liked it. The newer ones just don't do it for me of some reason. I am not talking about GT2 or GT3 RS, they are probably the finest you can buy (have never driven either) but the normal ones. If I could choose from the 992 range, I would probably take the Carrera S as I prefer rwd. Definitely not the Turbo, I did not feel connected with that car at all. Its crazy to say that with that 2200 kg Taycan I felt way more connection.

You surely have motorsport in your genes
I agree, nothing beats the 1970 models in purity and connection. My uncle has a 1973 that he bought from “the royal Swedish garage” in almost unused condition. He still spent 2 years on mechanical restoration. Unbelievable driving experience but definitely not a daily driver. The 992 feels properly modern while for me still beating pretty much everything available new today except some higher end 911s (The GT cars) I guess in terms of driving enjoyment.

You got me intrigued to drive the Taycan now.
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      02-14-2021, 03:57 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puuhapete View Post
Its actually incredible how light the Taycan feels. It is so planted and turns into corners like a much smaller car. And the steering is way better than in my F80. And that 4S did not have 4-wheel steering.

I don't think the weight is the problem on the G8X, the biggest problem for me is the transmission and the price actually too. In our country the starting price for the base Taycan is 40k eur lower than the G8X. And the 4S starts 20k lower at about the same performance as the G8X. It felt like a 3.5sec / 11.5sec car.
Your country is next to my original homeland

I'm not surprised over the BEV preferential treatment hearing from my family how cars are treated with environmental taxes etc. Many of my childhood friends who I used to discuss Akra pipes, cylinder bore, piston speed etc with are now mostly discussing the tax classes and EV range...

I've owned cars with the non M ZF8 and the Getrag 6sp AT before it and know I'll be ok with them. The M-DCT I had was nice on the track but today it feels ancient and uncivilized vs the like of the PDK. If I had to choose between the M-DCT and the latest ZF I'll take ZF.

ZF8: Great for daily use, acceptable on the track.
M-DCT: Great on track, acceptable for daily use.
6MT: Awesome on both but my wife has grown too lazy for it . As anyone over 40 that has grown up in a practically MT only country she drives it better than most Americans. Just don't want to anymore.

The G8X will be 100% daily use the first two years for us and then maybe 25/75 depending on many things.
oops, so sad for me to hear that. I want a more track oriented transmission I am ok to sacrifice some daily confortness, also the reason why I opted for the carbon bucket seat. Hope the M ones are better.
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      02-14-2021, 06:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I agree, nothing beats the 1970 models in purity and connection. My uncle has a 1973 that he bought from “the royal Swedish garage” in almost unused condition. He still spent 2 years on mechanical restoration. Unbelievable driving experience but definitely not a daily driver. The 992 feels properly modern while for me still beating pretty much everything available new today except some higher end 911s (The GT cars) I guess in terms of driving enjoyment.

You got me intrigued to drive the Taycan now.
Wow, well you know what I mean then with the rawness and feel

You need to drive the Taycan for sure, i suggest you try the 4S. Its about as fast as the 992 Carrera on a straight line up to about 150 km/h imo. The Taycan is no 911 of course but its unbelievable, how it drives for a 2200 kg car. I never thought electric cars could feel that sharp. As a daily you can't get anything better. On track I would think the 4S could be a 7.45 - 7.50 car at the ring but thats just an estimate and clearly slower as a 992 Carrera. As a daily I would definitely prefer the Taycan but if you track a lot, the 992 is the choice.

edit: here is an interesting thread
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...a-taycan.3866/

edit2: this is a good review, this guy is always very honest

Last edited by Puuhapete; 02-14-2021 at 10:54 AM..
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      03-18-2021, 07:48 PM   #17
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I wish they'd kept the DCT

As I've posted I other threads I was able to test drive a g80 comp yesterday for about 20 minutes of mixed street and highway driving. It's a good car and I will most likely buy one.

That said I wish they kept the dual clutch. I found the auto perfect fine for shifts under ~4500rpm but full throttle redline shifts are disappointing compared to DCT in the e92, f80, and Porsche's PDK.

It feels like they're ramping off the torque prior to each shift to save the gearbox. Almost like hitting a soft limiter. IMO even though the shift is still fast it's not exciting at all.

I get that the DCT had its issues with NVH and it was expensive but it would've made the car so much better in my opinion. Oh well.
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      03-18-2021, 08:54 PM   #18
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I'd say go with the 6MT. Also with the rev match on, it's almost as easy as driving the auto.
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      03-18-2021, 08:56 PM   #19
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I'd say go with the 6MT. Also with the rev match on, it's almost as easy as driving the auto.
Absolutely agree, AT isn’t for everyone. An MT is a better choice if transmission feel and engagement is your priority. And it doesn’t even have the NVH issues.
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      03-19-2021, 03:12 PM   #20
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I haven't driven a G80/82 with the ZF 8 speed, but I did drive the X3M with the same B58 engine and ZF 8 speed drivetrain and I was not impressed with the responsiveness of the transmission. It's a far cry from the DCT in my M4.

That's one of two major problems I have with the G8x. I'm not planning on replacing my M4 until at least 2023, but I may be looking at a P-car at that point.
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      03-19-2021, 05:13 PM   #21
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I have owned 2 M4 F series. One with the 6MT and one with the DCT. I was able to take about a 30 min test drive two G series. One with the ZF AT and the other the 6MT . The ZF was a big disappointment. While shifts are smooth there is noticeable lag that didn't exist in the DCT. It is almost like it also dials back the torque right before the shift. The 6MT however was really good. Throws are a little shorter then in the F Series. The clutch has good take up and the pedals are well spaced.
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      03-19-2021, 05:45 PM   #22
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Of all the complaints of the G8X this is the only one I personally fully understand. If you can’t drive or you don’t want an MT and love the DCT an AT is no substitute. Just as I never even contemplated buying anything but an MT, I would have passed on any car even exotics if they had AT I understand the disappointment. My advice would be to just pass on this generation if MT isn’t your thing and you despise AT.

I learnt to appreciate today’s AT and don’t see it as much of a downgrade if any over the old M-DCT.
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