[Lorcan]

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/mer...utm_medium=rss

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/mer...utm_medium=rss

My interest in new cars falls by the day.

[lens]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/mer...utm_medium=rss

Why do you think California is putting all those stupid "emission" laws and added ECU tuning to their list?

Same with car manufacturers locking the ECU, because they want people to come to them for tuning as they say "we want to make sure the tuning is done right"

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...s-out-of-ecus/

[Wills2]

I don't see anything wrong with offering the subscription but it's too much money, remember most of these cars will be rented on a "subscription" basis anyway via a lease scheme so the whole thing is a subscription.

[GOF_430d]

The sheer number of speed cameras, humps and shoddy roads where I live has saved me a potential fortune in unlocking additional performance from my car.

[Alscoob]

Geeks of the future are going to be really happy then

Fortunately I'm old enough to have enjoyed twin 40's, high lift cams and a 4 branch exhaust manifold with Lumenition ignition You'll never get a fake sound to sound like that !!

[Lorcan]

Originally Posted by Alscoob

Fortunately I'm old enough to have enjoyed twin 40's, high lift cams and a 4 branch exhaust manifold with Lumenition ignition You'll never get a fake sound to sound like that !!

A lot of racers I know used to recommend Web camshafts. It's not safe to Google "Web cams" any more.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/mer...utm_medium=rss

LOL

Country road
Sunday AM
Granny is out for her Sunday drive
You've been behind for a few miles waiting to pass
There's a gap!!
Floor it


RIP
Here lies JustChris who's acceleration subscription ran out mid corner.

[boba-fett]

Instead of getting bigger Turbo's, inlets, Rads and injectors we will be buying bigger Amp batteries.

Yawn!

[Ennoch]

Electric stuff is just soulless whether a car, a laptop or a camera. Who mourned the intercity 225 when it was retired vs who mourned the steam trains? Hell, even the old Intercity 125 at least sounded good when it was on full thrash (as did old Scania 142's which needed double de-clutched and rev matched vs a brand new Next Gen). Modern anything just has no soul; for all the clean functionality and soft touch, nice ergonomics, it's all just forgettable, anodyne blandness, and the more competence we add to the world in hidden complexity behind what we see, the more we take away from the requirement for us to actually engage with it.

We're moving ever closer to those dystopian worlds where humans are born into companies. We've had a good run away from that since the early years of the industrial revolution but now instead of working for them and having no freedom, we pretend that we've got freedom by choosing our employers but then committing ourselves to companies for ever more. It'll get to the point soon enough where you can't own anything even if you want to, you have to work your arse off just to continue standing still with all the things you rent and borrow. And the more people try to flout what these companies are trying to do, the more the companies will start fighting against those who do; pushing to have cars immobilised remotely if they're modified or serviced by a non-dealer/authorised agent, not actually selling cars but only offering leases on them etc. And the shame is that most people wouldn't even notice or care, those of us who want to own stuff/modify things are by far and away going to be in the minority, we already are.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

Electric stuff is just soulless whether a car, a laptop or a camera. Who mourned the intercity 225 when it was retired vs who mourned the steam trains? Hell, even the old Intercity 125 at least sounded good when it was on full thrash (as did old Scania 142's which needed double de-clutched and rev matched vs a brand new Next Gen). Modern anything just has no soul; for all the clean functionality and soft touch, nice ergonomics, it's all just forgettable, anodyne blandness, and the more competence we add to the world in hidden complexity behind what we see, the more we take away from the requirement for us to actually engage with it.

We're moving ever closer to those dystopian worlds where humans are born into companies. We've had a good run away from that since the early years of the industrial revolution but now instead of working for them and having no freedom, we pretend that we've got freedom by choosing our employers but then committing ourselves to companies for ever more. It'll get to the point soon enough where you can't own anything even if you want to, you have to work your arse off just to continue standing still with all the things you rent and borrow. And the more people try to flout what these companies are trying to do, the more the companies will start fighting against those who do; pushing to have cars immobilised remotely if they're modified or serviced by a non-dealer/authorised agent, not actually selling cars but only offering leases on them etc. And the shame is that most people wouldn't even notice or care, those of us who want to own stuff/modify things are by far and away going to be in the minority, we already are.

Ennoch, have you moved to China? or Russia? Last time I looked I could choose exactly what I bought and who I worked for.... I even get to retire with help from the state who have salted away some of my hard earned all my life for me (sort of).

Subscriptions, rentals, leases, are all still optional. And not sure that will change in my lifetime....

As for EVs with no soul, there is certainly less theatre and drama, but equally they are more subtle. And I'd argue that some EVs are car first and EV second and so do a pretty good job of satisfying on the drive front too...

Now just off to brave the M25 in my soulless EV....

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Ennoch, have you moved to China? or Russia? Last time I looked I could choose exactly what I bought and who I worked for.... I even get to retire with help from the state who have salted away some of my hard earned all my life for me (sort of).

Subscriptions, rentals, leases, are all still optional. And not sure that will change in my lifetime....

Haha, no, not quite. Maybe I'm going a bit far, but the reality is that thanks to a combination of the consumer behaviour of wanting the latest all the time, and corporations being desperate to squeeze every single penny they can, I can see it easily getting to the point where car companies do not actually sell new cars and you can only rent them. I mean just look at the Volvo option, or Tesla essentially blacklisting a car you own should you dare service it outside their network.

Just look at electronics; you cannot buy Adobe Photoshop anymore, it's a rental every month. Lose your job (or choose to have a break) and lose access to every single thing you have; rented car, rented car performance, rented heated steering wheel, rented Netflix, rented Spotify, rented Adobe. It all adds up. Now for many people who always want the latest this might seem like a good deal, but I'm not wasteful and would prefer to run something until it will no longer run, repair and go again until it really won't run any more. In some areas this is already impossible, in others it's fine, but as companies increasingly try to squeeze every drop from consumers it's only going to get more prevalent.

We have the choice of who we work for and who we give our money to, sure, but if all the companies go down the route of charging for stuff you've already bought, then do you actually have a choice to rent or buy, or are you fooled into the illusion of having choice?

Do BMW dealership servicing costs truly represent a fair representation of reality? No, of course they don't. The £160 per hour is there purely to make the warranty and service packs seem appealing. Same with the list prices on cars; how many people buy vs lease? A dealer can lease a car, make their money on it by renting and then re-sell it at the end of the lease, still for more than it cost the manufacturer to put together. Am I jaded with the modern world and how on one hand we've got companies telling us to be mindful of our consumption while on the other hand being the driver behind much wasteful consumption? Yep. Can you tell? I mean at what point is a heated steering wheel subscription turned off? If you have a car for twenty years (yeah, I know, how many people actually do that) then that heated steering wheel for £12 per month becomes clear profiteering. But then maybe to the average person who changes car every few years it makes sense because they aren't paying extra for parts for the majority of the life of the car they're not going to see. But then the changing of cars every few years because 'I want new' is also part of the problem...and the cycle continues.

[winther1]

car meets will be awesome

[boba-fett]

[Lynxi2k]

What difference does it make if you pay the manufacturer to upgrade/unlock the software or a tuner to unlock/upgrade an ecu?

[SkyJawa]

There’s no wonder I have had no desire to change my car since I bought it, even if it is now 8 years old. There’s nothing that fits the bill or floats my boat since, except maybe a F series 440i GC but it’s not worth the change.

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by Lynxi2k

What difference does it make if you pay the manufacturer to upgrade/unlock the software or a tuner to unlock/upgrade an ecu?

Because a tuner doesn't charge it annually as a cash cow.

Take a look at the Subaru PPP; £3000 upgrade to get to 265bhp but I spent £600 to achieve 300bhp. A rather big difference. Some people are happy to piss money up the wall but I for one am not. I'm into cars but more so I'm into driving. Modern stuff doesn't do anything for the driving part on public roads because they're so competent even in stock form, and the tuning part is plugging a laptop in; I'm more interested in getting my hands greasy than I am being a software developer.

[Lynxi2k]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

Because a tuner doesn't charge it annually as a cash cow.

Take a look at the Subaru PPP; £3000 upgrade to get to 265bhp but I spent £600 to achieve 300bhp. A rather big difference. Some people are happy to piss money up the wall but I for one am not. I'm into cars but more so I'm into driving. Modern stuff doesn't do anything for the driving part on public roads because they're so competent even in stock form, and the tuning part is plugging a laptop in; I'm more interested in getting my hands greasy than I am being a software developer.

I get what your saying about your preferences and dislike of EV's.

Pissing money up the wall is a relative term, most people outside of a car forum would consider £600 to make a fast car faster pissing money up the wall so it just depends which wall you prefer to piss up I guess?

Considering the ownership model these days seems to be 3 years then change, a tuning subscription makes sense and the car can be returned to normal when handed back or sold, alternatively you could buy 2nd hand and pay for the upgrade I assume?

There will always be someone somewhere who can unlock the same thing for a lower price as long as there is money to be made.

You can still buy an old(er) ice and play with it if you wish, but if you want an modern ev you can also pay the manufacturers to make them faster for as long as you wish if you do wish. So don't really see the issue myself, not sure it represents the end of our freedoms.

[Ennoch]

Oh, for sure. For many spending any money on their car at all is wasting money and so they get the absolute bare minimum for the absolute lowest price, including China's finest lookalike tyres and brake pads. When I say pissing money, I mean the sort of thing where you spend money unnecessarily, because you perceive it to be better even if it's the exact same parts. Kinda like getting tyres from a place online vs getting BMW to fit them, or genuinely believe that BMW service agents are some holy virgins who can fix your car just by whispering into the air intake. I joke, but for what they charge they bloody should be able to do that.

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, maybe all these subscriptions are better for us if it means we can buy a car that has everything ticked and then just go in and code it all? However I suspect the manufacturers know this and have something to make it an absolute pain in the tits, much like Tesla do, by either doing over the air updates or blacklisting/permanently disabling features if they suspect they're being used for free. And while some might say this is unlikely, this is capitalism, can you honestly imagine a company fitting all the stuff and then not putting something in there to make it either very, very difficult to circumvent, or if you should, they make it so much of an utter arse you regret doing so? These companies do not exist to make the best cars, they exist to make the most profit, and sadly electric cars seem to be getting even non-pertrolheads talking animatedly about cars, which means an entirely new demographic of people who might spend money on 'modifying' cars; people who aren't the ones to get dirty and fix something but rather are quite happy to go onto an app and pay for an extra subscription 'because it's quite cool'.

[Lynxi2k]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

Oh, for sure. For many spending any money on their car at all is wasting money and so they get the absolute bare minimum for the absolute lowest price, including China's finest lookalike tyres and brake pads. When I say pissing money, I mean the sort of thing where you spend money unnecessarily, because you perceive it to be better even if it's the exact same parts. Kinda like getting tyres from a place online vs getting BMW to fit them, or genuinely believe that BMW service agents are some holy virgins who can fix your car just by whispering into the air intake. I joke, but for what they charge they bloody should be able to do that.

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, maybe all these subscriptions are better for us if it means we can buy a car that has everything ticked and then just go in and code it all? However I suspect the manufacturers know this and have something to make it an absolute pain in the tits, much like Tesla do, by either doing over the air updates or blacklisting/permanently disabling features if they suspect they're being used for free. And while some might say this is unlikely, this is capitalism, can you honestly imagine a company fitting all the stuff and then not putting something in there to make it either very, very difficult to circumvent, or if you should, they make it so much of an utter arse you regret doing so? These companies do not exist to make the best cars, they exist to make the most profit, and sadly electric cars seem to be getting even non-pertrolheads talking animatedly about cars, which means an entirely new demographic of people who might spend money on 'modifying' cars; people who aren't the ones to get dirty and fix something but rather are quite happy to go onto an app and pay for an extra subscription 'because it's quite cool'.

I think, good or bad, the future is like the rest of the tech world, you get a base model then pay for things as you desire to "modify". Obviously apps are normally free and you pay for premium features and this seems an extension of that.

Performance aside, paying subscriptions for heated seats and steering wheels etc seems like a piss take tbh. Then again you option these things and pay the full cost upfront. Could you pay for a winter pack just for winter, performance just fit summer etc. maybe it is better, but I guess the next generation is used to paying for options in this way so probably a natural evolution.

Even modern ice cars are getting harder to work on without software and laptops etc so unless your going to stick to older ice cars the opportunity to get your hands dirty is getting less anyway.

Not sure it's either better or worse but it's definitely the future, if not already the present.

[Lorcan]

Originally Posted by Lynxi2k

I think, good or bad, the future is like the rest of the tech world, you get a base model then pay for things as you desire to "modify". Obviously apps are normally free and you pay for premium features and this seems an extension of that.

I think the point is, you're not getting the heated steering wheel for free, you're paying for it once when you buy/lease/rent the car and then paying again to unlock it. Unless manufacturers are reducing prices of their heavily equipped cars to the price of the base model, which seems unlikely.

[Lynxi2k]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

I think the point is, you're not getting the heated steering wheel for free, you're paying for it once when you buy/lease/rent the car and then paying again to unlock it. Unless manufacturers are reducing prices of their heavily equipped cars to the price of the base model, which seems unlikely.

The original point was to do with unlocking additional performance for a subsrciption fee, which I originally compared to mapping of an ecu. Although one is permanent and one not, in theory.

I agree with the notion for paying for equipment such as heated sterring wheel and paying again, it doesn't feel right. As for reduction in cost, if all cars are built to the same spec and the same equipment, then in theory the cost of those parts etc should come down reducing the initial cost of the car. I doubt that would translate to the german manufactures but some of the Asian companies might use this to shift more units and tempt people from those marques.

I guess if they went down this road the reality is a base spec car might become more expensive(due to extra equipment) but a top spec car less so to encourage the purchase of the subscriptions.

It would definitely push the price of the second hand market up as you could basically spec an old car is if it were new. More PCP's and Leases with higher residuals?