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      01-10-2008, 09:45 PM   #1
confusion
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can someone please explain to me why aftermarket suspension...

this is an honest question that i've thought a decent amount about and i simply cannot come up w/ a good answer. besides the ability to lower your car (admittedly awesome), why do people immediately replace the suspension on their new car (doing the work themselves) and then claim how much better it rides? i'm not debating that an aftermarket suspension can't be a whole heck of a lot better than stock (kw v2 looks like a sweet option!), but what i'm thorougly confused by is that people actually think that merely installing new hardware makes their car ride better. what about the countless hours of track time, dollars in r&d, and insightful knowledge from professional race car drivers given directly to engineers w/ years and years of experience? at what point does spending $2k on a suspension and installing it in a day in your own garage w/ a buddy and a six pack make your car so elite that it is instantly, and undeniably better than the oem setup?

can anyone really explain this to me? i understand the feeling of pride in doing it yourself but i simply do not understand this arrogance. this is not a simple butt dyno of throwing on a procede. i've yet to see lap times w/ track tested proof. people just think that their new setup is better and i don't get it. please help! i want to be a gifted personal race engineer, too!
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      01-10-2008, 11:39 PM   #2
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Amen!
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      01-11-2008, 12:23 AM   #3
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Well I know with more economical based cars the aftermarket suspension has stiffer spring rates and shocks to make for a more performance feel. I previously owned a VW and upgraded suspension was definately needed, night and day difference. I have driven several BMW M models and the suspension is absolutely better than a VW and definately performance oriented, but at the same time they were very soft and comfortable leaving plently of room to stiffen them up and create better performance. Stiffer springs rates will create a better weight transfer and allow better handling, how much better I can not tell you. I do know that while driving you will personally be able to push your car hard and further if it isnt rolling/pithcing as much, the feel of a more controlled, stable ride will allow you to go faster and harder. For the veterans and those that know about suspension tuning an aftermarket setup will allow them to fine tune the car for specific racing they do or just to suit their personal driving style. And what car doesnt look better lower than stock!
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      01-11-2008, 01:00 AM   #4
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Aftermarket suspension doesn't ride better; it handles better. When they say it rides better, they're referring to the tauter feel of a better buttoned-down suspension. Of course it's not going to like bumps as much...well ok sometimes the factory uses cheap crap shocks that compromise ride quality, but ignore this exception.

Now that we've cleared that up...

The stock setup is always going to be a compromise between ride (for DD duty) and handling (for spirited driving). The factory picks a spot somewhere between the two extremes. Enthusiasts often find that they'd like it further toward the handling extreme, and modify to suit their taste. Some of us know from experience that the stock setup is always way too soft for us, and see immediate suspension upgrades as an added cost when buying the car, much like an option package. "Such-and-such car can be had for $40k, but you have to factor in $2k for an LSD and another for $3k for suspension and brake tweaks, so it's really more like $45k for the final product." etc. etc.

Also, don't forget the all-important psychological factor. Even if it weren't true, we'd convince ourselves that our money hasn't been wasted.
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      01-11-2008, 06:34 AM   #5
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Some people have to do it the hard way. I did and did all the work my self and I have vowed never to touch suspension again after my Sti . There is a certain tightness to stock that never returns once you take apart your car.

I will only be adding BMW performance away bars to help with that supposed understeer issue


Good Post
Cheers to our 1 staying stock!
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      01-11-2008, 09:37 AM   #6
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Wow, just wow. :bangdesk:
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      01-11-2008, 09:45 AM   #7
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why am i not surprised by your response?
always contributing for the better of the forum...its an opinion for discussion not a judgement
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      01-11-2008, 09:57 AM   #8
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While not "riding" better. I think its pretty safe to say you can certainly feel a difference between a set of coilovers and the relatively flaccid stock suspension in terms of body-roll, sharpness, etc. etc.

I can't imagine anyone arguing that the factory soft suspension would outperform a competition designed version on the track.

Seems pretty silly but that's what I'm reading in your post.

That being said, I'm hoping a big set of sways, non-staggered tire setup and some additional front camber will make the car livable on the track, while not having to ruin its comfort in daily driving.

We shall see....
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      01-11-2008, 01:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
I can't imagine anyone arguing that the factory soft suspension would outperform a competition designed version on the track.

Seems pretty silly but that's what I'm reading in your post.
i'm not really sure how you jumped to this conclusion from my post. in fact, it makes me wonder if you even read it. my initial post is not questioning why anyone would upgrade their suspension. it's not suggesting that no aftermarket suspension is better than an oem one. the point that i'm making and that a couple of you got and couple did not is that i don't understand why some people think that by simply installing better hardware than their car comes w/ stock that their car is suddenly better. the missing ingredient here is tuning and testing. just because something subjectively feels better doesn't mean it actually performs better. that's what lap times are for. a high five to your buddy working his 5th beer doesn't shave 3 seconds off of your lap time. in fact, it's quite likely you just added time to your lap time. the cars come "balanced" from the factory. whether or not you like that balance is up to you. and changing it can certainly be fun and rewarding. but how can people tweak one variable in isolation and call it a day? that simply doesn't make sense to me.

edit: i found an article that discusses my point precisely (and technically) in the context of brakes. for those that missed my point entirely, please give it a read and come back and share your thoughts. thanks.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/te...ech/index.html
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      01-11-2008, 02:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confusion View Post
it's not suggesting that no aftermarket suspension is better than an oem one. the point that i'm making and that a couple of you got and couple did not is that i don't understand why some people think that by simply installing better hardware than their car comes w/ stock that their car is suddenly better. the missing ingredient here is tuning and testing. just because something subjectively feels better doesn't mean it actually performs better. that's what lap times are for. a high five to your buddy working his 5th beer doesn't shave 3 seconds off of your lap time. in fact, it's quite likely you just added time to your lap time. the cars come "balanced" from the factory. whether or not you like that balance is up to you. and changing it can certainly be fun and rewarding. but how can people tweak one variable in isolation and call it a day? that simply doesn't make sense to me.

edit: i found an article that discusses my point precisely (and technically) in the context of brakes. for those that missed my point entirely, please give it a read and come back and share your thoughts. thanks.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/te...ech/index.html
First, ease up there tiger.

That's exactly what you are saying:

You're saying that installing a set of PSS9's on an otherwise stock car isn't necessarily going to leave it performing "better" than a stock setup on the track??? You are indeed saying that such an upgrade might leave you worse off, are you not?

If you can't see the difference between that, and all the fools who think a BBK will shorten single-stop stopping distances (braking 101: Its traction limited putting aside fade), then I'm sorry.

I agree with you 100% on things like brakes, which people don't have the first clue about...If you expected a BBK to shorten your stopping distances in single-stop applications, then you sadly mistaken from the beginning. For everyone else, that article shouldn't come as a surprise. The added rotational inertia alone could have lengthen the stops.

Hence all the, "my car stops SO much better wit my new BBK" <--anyone who knows anything about brakes will rip that guy a new one without even having to think about it.

However, that doesn't translate into suspensions so well.

Sure, if you install a suspension and throw the fronts on full stiff, and the rears to another extreme, you may come out worse....but what about non-adjustable suspensions? There's nothing to change. I think you'll have to assume that if the setu is adjustable, that you won't screw up the settings that badly. Stiffer shocks and springs are stiffer shocks and springs. That's a big deal as far as track work goes.

Further, when was the last time BMW release a "balanced" car from the factory? The E36 M3? Last I checked, the 135 plows around like most modern BMW's.

Your point is well taking, speaking generally, although I think you picked a bad example using suspension work.

Your first post seems to imply that BMW designs these suspension for road course work. Is that a joke?

Who do you think designed a suspension for track use? Bilstein when they made their race-coilovers, or BMW when they made their understeering, leather-clad consumer product?

Your image of BMW pro-drivers working furiously to dial in the perfect track balance is laughable, quite honestly. The suspension for track standards to very soft, and not at all suited for road courses...although its a very good street setup.







P.S. Wanna see which braking setup would perform better had they been at a road course where heat capacity comes into play? I'll give you one guess.
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      01-11-2008, 02:08 PM   #11
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I think confusion just wants his car to feel more stock. That's fine for him. I know the quickest way around the track will not be with stock suspension. I'll be going with adjustable damping struts or coilovers, so that I can easily go from stock feeling to race stiff in seconds. Also, I don't slam the car, but I will lower it, so that the center of gravity is closer to the ground, improving adhesion.

As far as braking goes, I will simply change pads and fluid (possibly SS lines), so keep them from overcooking during longer sessions.
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      01-11-2008, 02:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
I think confusion just wants his car to feel more stock. That's fine for him. I know the quickest way around the track will not be with stock suspension. I'll be going with adjustable damping struts or coilovers, so that I can easily go from stock feeling to race stiff in seconds. Also, I don't slam the car, but I will lower it, so that the center of gravity is closer to the ground, improving adhesion.

As far as braking goes, I will simply change pads and fluid (possibly SS lines), so keep them from overcooking during longer sessions.
I'm fine with the stock suspension as well. If I can get it neutral with just bars and a non-staggered tire setup, I'll take the stock ride over a set of coilovers any day for a daily driver.


But confusion seems to be implying a factory balance and a "track designed" setup that just isn't there to screw up in the first place.
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      01-11-2008, 02:43 PM   #13
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The issue here is that "better" is really a subjective term. Some people will feel that the stock setup is better than a set of adjustable coilovers. Others will feel exactly the oposite.

The main thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that it doesn't matter what "we" think, it only matters what the driver/owner of that particular car thinks.

If it's my car and my money, don't try and tell how I should think and what path I should take. I'll make my own decisions.

Now, can someone tell me how to put this new VTA blow-off valve, set of 20" wheels, and NOS on my 135?
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      01-11-2008, 03:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaMind View Post
The issue here is that "better" is really a subjective term. Some people will feel that the stock setup is better than a set of adjustable coilovers. Others will feel exactly the oposite.

The main thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that it doesn't matter what "we" think, it only matters what the driver/owner of that particular car thinks.
Agreed, but that all goes out the window when you start talking about what is "faster" on a road course.

It takes some kind of leap off the deep end to argue that a buttoned down suspension is ever going to be worse for an average road-course than the stock BMW bits.

I agree with your point, but that's not the point he's making.
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      01-11-2008, 05:56 PM   #15
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My main reason for changing the susp on my current car was because of the adjustable height to LOOK better.. I dont intend to track my BMW nor tracked my highly modded TSX.. but damn most cars look so much better because they are lower.. for some its better handling and for others like me its more of the ability to lower the car and look better especially if you have aftermarket rims.
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      01-11-2008, 09:19 PM   #16
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Suspension dynamics is indeed one of the most complicated automotive subjects. Over the course of 3 years (and three SCCA Solo regional championships) I took my E36 M3 from stock to a state of suspension tune that was no longer a pleasure to drive on the street. There are always compromises. Just one example: Many people like the looks of a really slammed low car. The reality is that for that desired look they have given up suspension travel which limits bump absorbtion and, in the worst case, the front MacP strut suspension's roll-center can actually go below ground level (believe me, you won't like the way it handles!). For me it was defiitely a trial and error process, but starting from an extensive knowledge base created by others that had gone before me.

I will not make the same mistake with this 135 that I'll be using as a dual purpose car, so I can expect my Solo results to be less successful.
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      01-12-2008, 08:41 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrematureApex View Post
Agreed, but that all goes out the window when you start talking about what is "faster" on a road course.

It takes some kind of leap off the deep end to argue that a buttoned down suspension is ever going to be worse for an average road-course than the stock BMW bits.

I agree with your point, but that's not the point he's making.
I wasn't limiting the discussion to what is faster around the track. While that might be important to some, it's not to others (see the post directly below yours).

Some people will feel that their actions/modifications are better, even if they are, statistically speaking, incorrect. It's not necessarily logic that I agree with, but to each his own.
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      01-12-2008, 02:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
Suspension dynamics is indeed one of the most complicated automotive subjects. Over the course of 3 years (and three SCCA Solo regional championships) I took my E36 M3 from stock to a state of suspension tune that was no longer a pleasure to drive on the street. There are always compromises. Just one example: Many people like the looks of a really slammed low car. The reality is that for that desired look they have given up suspension travel which limits bump absorbtion and, in the worst case, the front MacP strut suspension's roll-center can actually go below ground level (believe me, you won't like the way it handles!). For me it was defiitely a trial and error process, but starting from an extensive knowledge base created by others that had gone before me.

I will not make the same mistake with this 135 that I'll be using as a dual purpose car, so I can expect my Solo results to be less successful.
Could you give out any pointers as how one could avoid this scenario? In the future, I would like to lower my 135i to minimize body roll and maximize in neutral handling (maybe with an ever so slight tendency to over steer); however, I'm afraid that I might lower it too much,which would retard the roll-center as you stated.

Granted, I don't think I would be doing any suspension upgrades until I feel limited by the stock sport suspension on the 135i.

Anyone else have any pointers?
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      01-12-2008, 02:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastaMind View Post
I wasn't limiting the discussion to what is faster around the track. While that might be important to some, it's not to others (see the post directly below yours).

Some people will feel that their actions/modifications are better, even if they are, statistically speaking, incorrect. It's not necessarily logic that I agree with, but to each his own.
Yes, of course, I didn't mean to imply you were.

The OP was talking about improvements that could be measured on the track. That was the topic of this thread.
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      01-12-2008, 03:11 PM   #20
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OK - suspension guru's - I've noticed that many very choppy rides in 'sporty' cars have been cleaned up by migrating to monotube shock absorbers. I believe the 1er has a twin-tube shock design. Any thoughts?
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      01-12-2008, 03:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semaj View Post
Could you give out any pointers as how one could avoid this scenario? In the future, I would like to lower my 135i to minimize body roll and maximize in neutral handling (maybe with an ever so slight tendency to over steer); however, I'm afraid that I might lower it too much,which would retard the roll-center as you stated.

Granted, I don't think I would be doing any suspension upgrades until I feel limited by the stock sport suspension on the 135i.

Anyone else have any pointers?
Before you lower the car, I'd first try a good set of front and rear swaybars, such as UUC, H&R, Active Autowerke or others. They will go a long way to reduce body roll, improve turn-in, and reduce understeer (if properly adjusted). If you still want a lower ride, then...

I'm not a fan of aftermarket springs classified as "Race" springs installed for street driving. I believe they lower the car excessively and actually have too low a spring rate for street use. That leaves the two most popular choices:

1. H&R or similar brand "Sport" springs with a good aftermarket struts/shocks such as Koni or Bilstein. Pay close attention to the advertised drop and try to see pics of similar cars using that setup.

2. Coilovers with springs designed for the use of the car: street, combo, or race, again with good struts/shocks with valving designed to work with the springs.

It's a matter of budget and if you need adjustability and how much. It's important to make changes incrementaly rather than wholesale, in order to feel the effect each has on the cars handling.
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      01-13-2008, 12:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izzodesh View Post
why am i not surprised by your response?
always contributing for the better of the forum...its an opinion for discussion not a judgement
PrematureApex summed it for for me. Any properly set up aftermarket suspension will perform better than OEM, period.
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