a word about engine managment

[mprhead5]

I have noticed that a lot of people on this forum are aprehensive about programable ecu options like the procede. More people seem interested in purchasing a module that adds a few hp and calling it good. I see a lot of people bad mouthing the procede because of lack of customer support for the product and fears of engine failure. I think a lot of people don't understand that there is a huge differance between a performance adding module or software download like the Dinan package or juice box and the procede.

when I made the decision to go with an aftermarked ECU option on my car, fully programable ecu's where the only choise. Ether an xede or a hydra ems where the only choises. I see many people in my community going with programable ecu's and expecting them to run right out of the box as well as a simple software upgrade. This however is not the case. When I got my hydra ems it came with a base tune that was good enough to get me to the dyno shop. I then spent 500.00 on a 7 hour dyno tune session and I have never had a single problem with it. Many other people with the same setup have either struggled to reach simmilar power goals or have blown their motors running less boost and power than me. The simple fact is that if you get a programable ecu like the procede you really need to spend the extra money on a protune dyno session. It is plainly apperant that the procede makes a lot more HP than any other setup out there. Thats because it can be programed to work with any mod provided that you take the time to tune it properly. If you just plug it in and expect it to be perfect on your car your looking for trouble.

In my mind a programable ecu is the only option for anyone looking for real power. Some people can be satisfied with a conservitive software upgrade like the dinan. But if you want to release the full potental of your N54 get a programable procede and spend the money saved on a good protune and the car will be faster and still safe from detonation.

hopefully any little bugs in the procede will be taken care of with the next version. Don't fear programable ecu's because you don't understand them. and don't go to lunch while its getting tuned either. sit in the passenger seat and ask lots of questions so that by then end of the day you will be able to make changes to the programing as well.

if thats too much for anyone to deal with then you can sit comfy while that procede bimmer blows your doors off.

[Crowley]

So is the Procede like a Diablo Predator tuner? In my mustang, I had the diablo .. it came with a base tune, but could be used by my shop as well. They had the dyno, the software ... would put the car on the dyno, make changes to the tune and then reflash.

Does anyone make anything similar to that? Im guessing this is what the Dinan is, but we don't have access to the "hardware" to customize the tune ..

I agree that a canned tune will only get you so far and all cars are not created equal. The best solution is the spend the money to get a professional to dyno the car and tune the car at the same time for what you want it to do. For a daily driver, that would be maximizing but keeping it as safe as possible.

Crowley

[mprhead5]

that diablo tuner is a programable module that you can use to reflash your ecu. thats closer to what the dinan is exept I imagine the dinan software has a little more work put into it than the diablo tuner. some ecu's are better than others. GM's LS motors don't even need an expensive module. just get LS2edit and run it on your laptop.
the nice thing about the procede is that with the large ammount of support given by shiv they have been kind enough to supply maps for many differant configurations while still supplying a product that can be hooked into your laptop and tuned at the dyno. you can opt for the simplicity of that easy to use diablo tuner with the fine tuning capability of full replacment ECU's but without the headache of trying to dial in idle speed derivitives and auxilary spark map thresholds.

With the new plug and play harness with the V3 procede it should aleaveate most the issues that people are having. just keep in mind that when you start adding lots of power into a car you somtimes have to make due with slight drivability annoyances.

I want to make it clear that I am not a Procede Fanboy. I own no product made by shiv and in fact chose a differant engine managment on my car. I have experiance with tuning cars and ECU's and a degree from a noted automotive collage.

don't get suckered by big names. look at the technoligy and functionality of the product and decide what features you need for your application. If all you will ever do is install a catback and a tune then go with a reflash. if you want anything more than that get somthing thats programable

[adc]

The truth is that nobody really knows what the long term reliability implications are with options that make lots of power, like the Procede. :iono:

Vishnu tuning doesn't offer any guarantees, not even short or medium term - unlike Dinan.

As a counter-point to your thread, I'd urge potential modders to think about this very seriously... too many first-timers don't understand that sometimes you may really have to pay to play.


Another point not often mentioned is that when you add significant extra power to a car (say 80-100WHP), you may need to upgrade other things on it so it an cope: brakes, suspension, cooling are the first ones to show limitations.

Unless of course someone's idea of blowing the doors off simply means an occasional highway race...

[ansun]

Originally Posted by adc

As a counter-point to your thread, I'd urge potential modders to think about this very seriously... too many first-timers don't understand that sometimes you may really have to pay to play.


Another point not often mentioned is that when you add significant extra power to a car (say 80-100WHP), you may need to upgrade other things on it so it an cope: brakes, suspension, cooling are the first ones to show limitations.

I like that quote...pay to play.

One thing that is for damn sure is that on a 135 you DO NOT need to upgrade the brakes.

[mprhead5]

I think in the bmw world a lot of people don't understand the ECU options that are available. people that don't understand engine managment are the ones that always come back 4 months later crying bloody murder because that ecu mod they did " blew" their engine. in reality 90% of the time it was the failure to tune properly that was the real cause for the failure. of cource Dinan can offer a warrenty for their product because its so mild that its no risk. all of these piggyback makers also build in a good safty margin into the tunes they release into the public. But you can't go adding parts to that base tune without messing up the Air/Fuel ratios. every time you add a new part you need to take a look at your tune and adjust it properly. The Prodede guys have been kind enough to offer several tune maps based on your mods to help you out but its still always a good Idea to cheak the tune on the dyno and fine tune it because 2 cars don't always react exactly the same.


the brakes on this car are fine for plenty more power. It is true that once you add a lot of power the car may become unmanagable. most cars can take anouther 100hp without too many problems as long as it was well egineered in the first place. the only part I can see going bad with all that power is the clutch maybee if it was under engineered or the driver wasn't that skilled.

the fact is we don't know where the week point are yet but I somhow doubt that 100 more hp is going to blow this motor or it probebly wouldn't have been the motor of the year.

bad tuning on the other hand can blow any motor

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by mprhead5

I have noticed that a lot of people on this forum are aprehensive about programable ecu options like the procede. More people seem interested in purchasing a module that adds a few hp and calling it good. I see a lot of people bad mouthing the procede because of lack of customer support for the product and fears of engine failure. I think a lot of people don't understand that there is a huge differance between a performance adding module or software download like the Dinan package or juice box and the procede.

when I made the decision to go with an aftermarked ECU option on my car, fully programable ecu's where the only choise. Ether an xede or a hydra ems where the only choises. I see many people in my community going with programable ecu's and expecting them to run right out of the box as well as a simple software upgrade. This however is not the case. When I got my hydra ems it came with a base tune that was good enough to get me to the dyno shop. I then spent 500.00 on a 7 hour dyno tune session and I have never had a single problem with it. Many other people with the same setup have either struggled to reach simmilar power goals or have blown their motors running less boost and power than me. The simple fact is that if you get a programable ecu like the procede you really need to spend the extra money on a protune dyno session. It is plainly apperant that the procede makes a lot more HP than any other setup out there. Thats because it can be programed to work with any mod provided that you take the time to tune it properly. If you just plug it in and expect it to be perfect on your car your looking for trouble.

In my mind a programable ecu is the only option for anyone looking for real power. Some people can be satisfied with a conservitive software upgrade like the dinan. But if you want to release the full potental of your N54 get a programable procede and spend the money saved on a good protune and the car will be faster and still safe from detonation.

hopefully any little bugs in the procede will be taken care of with the next version. Don't fear programable ecu's because you don't understand them. and don't go to lunch while its getting tuned either. sit in the passenger seat and ask lots of questions so that by then end of the day you will be able to make changes to the programing as well.

if thats too much for anyone to deal with then you can sit comfy while that procede bimmer blows your doors off.

Sorry, your post is an oxi-moron or moot, you decide. You cross referencing a Piggyback as a "programmable ecu". This is not the case. A Piggyback is not an ecu or (in some cases) even software. No street tuner has control of the ECU, thus the reason behind having to use a piggyback. BMW's engine control units are encrypted, thus everything you have said doesn't apply to the N54. There is no such thing as a programmable ECU in the BMW world. Just re-flashed and piggybacks.

Piggybacks rely 100% on the engine's ECu by fooling the signals going back to it, then lets the engine management perform it's normal operation based on these illegitimate signals. Certain engine management function cannot be controlled by a piggyback, therefore there is a given level of crudeness and a missing level of "refinements" in a piggyback system.

Nothing agenda driven, these are just the facts!

[adc]

Originally Posted by Ansun

One thing that is for damn sure is that on a 135 you DO NOT need to upgrade the brakes.

Originally Posted by mprhead5

the brakes on this car are fine for plenty more power.

The stock brakes are not fine even on the stock car, in extreme conditions (track driving). Hopefully they can become sufficient with race pads and fluid.

Same story with the stock suspension.

With another 100 HP on top, both braking and suspension have to be upgraded. Otherwise you won't be able to take advantage of all the power the car has to offer. :iono:



Of course if all your racing takes place on straight smooth Interstate stretches, then brakes and suspension will be fine.

[mtla4]

The original poster is right. I.e in the bike world you can tune youre ecu with a power commander. Different maps for different mods. The air/fuel ratio changed quick with mods. Nothing will beat a dyno tune.
To be honest modding an N54 at this point is like being a Guinea Pig. Nobody knows how the engine will respond to these mods on a long term. The N54 could turn into an other 2.7TT from Audi or it could be the next 1.8T(bulletproof). People were chipping the 2.7TT great hp gains cheap mods until a few guys blew their K03s.Gotta pay to play. Otherwise just sit there watch and copy other people mods when the trial and error process will be over(well it will never end there is always something new to learn about)

[mprhead5]

Originally Posted by adc

The stock brakes are not fine even on the stock car, in extreme conditions (track driving). Hopefully they can become sufficient with race pads and fluid.

Same story with the stock suspension.

With another 100 HP on top, both braking and suspension have to be upgraded. Otherwise you won't be able to take advantage of all the power the car has to offer. :iono:



Of course if all your racing takes place on straight smooth Interstate stretches, then brakes and suspension will be fine.

pads and fluid arn't really a brake upgrade. thats just replacing wear parts with higher performance alternitives. I have heard reviews that say the 135i brakes are better than e46 M3 brakes. Where are you getting your information. have you tracked your 135i? if so share with the group.

And yes anouther 100hp may unbalance the car but that wasn't what I was saying. I was only stating that the drivetrain should be able to handle it. I am well aware of what 90 more whp can do to the drivability of an otherwise stock car. it is harder to manage without suspension mods but the point of the thread is to talk about ECU's so I stayed with how the drivetrain can handle the power.

[Rye]

Coming from the Audi community, it just takes time. I remember when the only option was having to swap ECU's out (a 5min job) and only having 1 program on it...this was back in 2000. Now, it's reflashing and being able to tweak your program by yourself, multiple fueling maps, etc...all w/o having to go to a vendor or even a dyno. The Audi community has gotten to the point where you can pretty much log your own data with whatever your tweaks are, post them up, and ppl will help you determine if you're doing really well, what else to adjust, etc, etc.

It'll take some years where the BMW community gets to that point...the N54 engine is a new thing and this generation is pretty much as mtla4 said, "guinea pigs" on getting the full power usage of it.

It's gonna be nice to see in a few years what things will look like.

[mikeo]

I agree with numbers.

[hellrotm]

Dinan is not for people:

- on a budget

- doing extensive modding

- need to have the highest HP tune

- do not worry about warranty

[F0Bman]

I wonder why no one wants to run Motec or Pectel?

[mikead_99]

I have to say I totally agree with you mprhead5. My current car is only NA, no boost, yet I have a piggyback that allows full control of fuel and timing at different engine load/TPS values. I have a decent amount of breathing and drivetrain mods and the ecu is smart enough to overcompensate and return to the factory rich state when WOT. I got a base tune from a respected pro, but then took the time to get to know my car and the piggyback and have re-written the Maps I have to fit my driving through extensive, meticulous data logging and road tuning (35% load and up full control through open loop tuning). I ended up gaining more low-end torque over the pro's tune and have higher peak hp, with a damn smooth power band, all within a safe afr range and temperature compensated. I think after having been through this experience I will never want to live with a generic tune. I am anxious to start learning and working with a boosted platform. Less timing, lower afr I know, but still the same, but different. I just hope this is something that is still possible with the newer ECUs as I am assured to have one. Piggyback or user interface to ecu flash is more desireable to me than a complete ECU swap, but I will keep my mind open.

[mikead_99]

Originally Posted by adc

The truth is that nobody really knows what the long term reliability implications are with options that make lots of power, like the Procede. :iono:

Vishnu tuning doesn't offer any guarantees, not even short or medium term - unlike Dinan.

As a counter-point to your thread, I'd urge potential modders to think about this very seriously... too many first-timers don't understand that sometimes you may really have to pay to play.


Another point not often mentioned is that when you add significant extra power to a car (say 80-100WHP), you may need to upgrade other things on it so it an cope: brakes, suspension, cooling are the first ones to show limitations.

Unless of course someone's idea of blowing the doors off simply means an occasional highway race...

I do agree with you that you better be willing to pay the price if you want this level of control. Good points to raise in this thread. Being that this is a relatively new forum for a new platform, hopefully the knowledge base here will only continue to grow so people can go about taking this risk intelligently, if it is the course they choose.

[mprhead5]

once you have proramed one ecu you can pretty much use any of them as far as fuel and spark tuning go

[Robert]

when I made the decision to go with an aftermarked ECU option on my car, fully programable ecu's where the only choise. Ether an xede or a hydra ems where the only choises. I see many people in my community going with programable ecu's and expecting them to run right out of the box as well as a simple software upgrade. This however is not the case. When I got my hydra ems it came with a base tune that was good enough to get me to the dyno shop. I then spent 500.00 on a 7 hour dyno tune session and I have never had a single problem with it. Many other people with the same setup have either struggled to reach simmilar power goals or have blown their motors running less boost and power than me. The simple fact is that if you get a programable ecu like the procede you really need to spend the extra money on a protune dyno session. It is plainly apperant that the procede makes a lot more HP than any other setup out there. Thats because it can be programed to work with any mod provided that you take the time to tune it properly. If you just plug it in and expect it to be perfect on your car your looking for trouble.

The Vishnu tune, not singling them out, or any tune should work out of the box on stock hardware, and I believe they all do without a need for a professional tuning session. The only time that an user would require a custom tune is when he changed the baseline of the hardware so the software and hardware no longer match up. V3 is an attempt to provide a template for various possible hardware configurations. Correct me if I am wrong, since I am new to this. But there is no need to run out and spend 500 bucks unless you modified the hardware in any other way.

If this is not the case, then performance manufacturers should stated the warning in bold letters on the first page of their manual. Otherwise, users do have a right to complain and moan.

[mprhead5]

yes the base tunes that come with it should work fine on a stock car and Vishnu is pretty good about supplying maps for use with differant mods. You won't need to spend big bucks on a dyno tune but It is advisable to take it to the dyno and make a few runs to make sure your A/F ratios are good. not all cars react the same to tuning and its always good to cheak. plus you get to see how much power you picked up from the mod so its worth doing anyway. just make sure to have the dyno guys hook up the wideband sensor to mesure A/F ratio.

[Robert]

You have any online reference that I can read up upon? I wouldn't know what to look for on the dyno.

[mprhead5]

its not as complicated as people think. basicly you need to moniter your A/F ratio curve and listen for knock or detonation. a lot of engine failures are the results of small holes in the fuel map and more commonly greedy spark timing.

[Aries932]

Originally Posted by mprhead5

pads and fluid arn't really a brake upgrade. thats just replacing wear parts with higher performance alternitives. I have heard reviews that say the 135i brakes are better than e46 M3 brakes. Where are you getting your information. have you tracked your 135i? if so share with the group.

And yes anouther 100hp may unbalance the car but that wasn't what I was saying. I was only stating that the drivetrain should be able to handle it. I am well aware of what 90 more whp can do to the drivability of an otherwise stock car. it is harder to manage without suspension mods but the point of the thread is to talk about ECU's so I stayed with how the drivetrain can handle the power.

i hate to say this about the E46 M3 since i am currently selling mine, but the brakes on the 135i are much better...it is one of the first brake systems that BMW has put in with 6 piston brakes...i am not sure if you have driven the 135i yet, but when i test drove the car the brakes worked very well.