[marty333]

I'm hoping you experts may have advice for dealing with the apparent catastrophic self-destruction of my beloved, pampered 2019 BMW 530e at 30,000 miles.

On a recent road trip, the A/C stopped cooling. A BMW dealer at my destination prescribed a new Compressor based on these codes (among a few others):

80120E: Electric A/C compressor: Switch-off due to overvoltage or undervoltage
8011C4: Electric A/C compressor: OBD, HV voltage sensor, short circuit to B-
030ECD: Charge management function: Fault during the charging procedure
030EC1: Charge management function: Charging electronics fault

He also advised that he'd check for "swarf" (metal shavings sent into the AC system), and to brace myself for a $15K bill if it was found. Fortunately, they found no swarf, and estimated $3,400 USD for a new compressor. Not great, but OK. Compressors do go bad. BUT, after replacing the compressor, they found that the entire HV "KLE" branch/system has to be replaced, raising the estimate by $20,000+! Here's what the technician wrote (emphasis mine):

There are further faults in high voltage system causing EME internal blown fuse.
Faults 21E720 8011C4 80120E stored relating to the complete by the compressor and unable to restore system after compressor replacement. Measured resistance to each cable and each component with adapter and cannot identify the KLE branch down from internal short in system, likely caused source of short which is likely intermittent. Since there is no definitive short BMW recommends we replace each component as good measure and best practice with high voltage. EME and all connections and components connected through KLE replaced would deem this vehicle total loss.
Added up components are 20$k.

The car still seems drivable as a non-plug-in hybrid without Air Conditioning, but unfortunately, I live in Texas. The shop technician raised a case with BMW to see if they could cover the cost since the car has such low miles, a single owner, and no accidents (not even one scratch or dent). BMW declined his request. I called to open my own Case, and we will see. I will also contact my home dealer for a second opinion. (Needless to say in hindsight I regret not having bought an extended warranty.)

Any other advice? Or any other information I can share? Unfortunately I may have gone from a BMW-lover to a BMW-hater in the span of a phone call.

p.s. Sorry for the long post!

[DrVenture]

That sucks.

It seems that KLE is the on board charger. EME is the motor controller/inverter system.
Two of your fault codes pertaining to charging system. But, only the A/C is impacted, so it may be a red herring.

Lots of questions come to me.

- Was the compressor ever really faulty or just shut down to protect itself? Ot the EME fuse was blown and the dealership missed it?
- If only the A/C detected the fault, why not suspect and start with that branch first?
- Dealerships are notorious for not being able to diagnose/analyze faults that are non-classical, is there a shop in Texas that does EVs that can actually perform real diag?
- The EME blown fuse is certainly a clue. I wonder how many fuses there are in the EME. I am assuming this fuse feed the branch with A/C.
- Since the car still charges and drives, obviously the fault is inherent to the branch that powers the A/C.
- Consider a different BMW dealer, if these guys are not going to explore further without simply swapping expensive parts, but be prepared to pat for diagnostic time.
- Sell to some one in Alaksa, who doesn't care about A/C < half in jest.

[marty333]

Appreciate your thoughts DrVenture. I did leave out a few details, trying to keep the post shorter. One is that the car refused to charge after the A/C went out. At the time I assumed it was just because it needs A/C to cool the battery when charging, but now it seems like it may have been this KLE fault.

The 8011C4 code seems to be saying the compressor has (or had) a short. The technician thought removing the compressor must have loosened the short.

- Was the compressor ever really faulty or just shut down to protect itself? Ot the EME fuse was blown and the dealership missed it?

This ^ is good point. It might explain how they thought they were going to fix it with a new compressor, then all of a sudden the EME needs replacing ($10K) due to the short.
More detail on the BMW procedure:

If the cause of the short circuit in the high-voltage vehicle electrical system cannot be identified, renew the following components:
- EME
- KLE
- Electric auxiliary heater
- Electric A/C compressor
- All high-voltage cables between these high-voltage components

(There are also various codes on the sheets he gave me, which I can share if helpful.)

- Sell the car to someone in Alaska

I had the same thought! Or move to Alaska!

[DrVenture]

Can they disconnect the harness connection to the A/C and see if the fuse holds. Thus isolating the fault to that circuit/harness.

If the short is now cleared, then the fuse should hold, if not, that makes finding it possible. But requires real diagnosis, not flow-chart diagnosis.

Is this truncated after the "B-"? : "8011C4: Electric A/C compressor: OBD, HV voltage sensor, short circuit to B-"
It certainly appears that the HV sensor on that branch detected the fault.

LOL - on moving to Alaska.

[marty333]

I think that "B-" must be shorthand. My own code reader called it this:

8011C4: eKMV: OBD HV voltage sensor short circuit to minus or line interruption

[DrVenture]

Ah, so the system sees a "lo" where there should be a "hi", hence "short circuit to minus", though "line interruption" might imply a momentary "open" dropping line voltage to zero. But, an open would not blow a fuse, so it should be assumed a short to GRD or high current draw.

Here is an interesting video -

Sheds a little insight. it appears that PTC heater and A/C are fed from the same fuse. They did not find a short either, despite the blown fuse! And several comments suggest that they have a similar issue with a 530e. Does your heat work? Was the fuse replaced? It looks like the wire to A/C can be disconnected for testing purposes. Maybe the PTC heater too? Maybe the heater can be disconnected and the A/C left connected for troubleshooting? Have they tested the PTC heater system for excessive current draw? Including cabling?

I am also wondering if there are other fuses downstream, specifically for the heater, that might be removed for testing/current monitoring purposes. Or just one big honking fuse, located in a hard to reach area, for both A/C and heat and associated cabling?

On edit, it occurs to me that if this is the only fuse blowing, why would they suspect anything but the heater and A/C?

[marty333]

Yes indeed, that video sheds some light on these issues, and gives me hope that it might be possible to replace the EME fuse. (The dealer didn't indicate that he could replace it--maybe they just avoid delving down at that level..?)

I really appreciate your advice for troubleshooting it further. I will raise some of those questions to my home dealer (or perhaps some other EV-capable shop) next week.

In the meantime I got the car back and started driving home to Texas. The electric drive did seem to stop working during the heat of the day, but started working again when things cooled down. I presume that's the battery shutting down due to lack of cooling.

Another background note which may or may not be relevant is that I'd been having an issue for a year or more where the electric drive shuts off intermittently for no good reason, saying "Too much power required" when it really shouldn't (i.e. on flat ground without acceleration).

[Warp Ten]

I am completely non-knowledgeable about electric cars, but is there something like the extended warranty for emissions parts on normal cars that applies to the electric component's? Seems like there should be. --Bob

[marty333]

Originally Posted by Warp Ten

I am completely non-knowledgeable about electric cars, but is there something like the extended warranty for emissions parts on normal cars that applies to the electric component's? Seems like there should be. --Bob

The hybrid battery itself does have a long warranty (8 year / 80K miles). I think California residents get a dramatically longer warranty for the whole EV system.

[LogicalApex]

This is a very unpleasant thread. Sorry you're encountering this.

Since you mentioned having weird issues for your hybrid system over the last year. I would press to see if BMW will cover it again. Especially with your home dealership if you brought this to their attention.

It seems crazy to me that the AC system failing (which cools both the battery and the cabin) would lead to a $20K failure.

Originally Posted by marty333

The hybrid battery itself does have a long warranty (8 year / 80K miles). I think California residents get a dramatically longer warranty for the whole EV system.

That longer warranty on the hybrid system is for all people in a CARB state. That includes California and a few others, including NY state, as enumerated in the manual.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

This is a very unpleasant thread. Sorry you're encountering this.

Since you mentioned having weird issues for your hybrid system over the last year. I would press to see if BMW will cover it again. Especially with your home dealership if you brought this to their attention.

It seems crazy to me that the AC system failing (which cools both the battery and the cabin) would lead to a $20K failure.



That longer warranty on the hybrid system is for all people in a CARB state. That includes California and a few others, including NY state, as enumerated in the manual.

I think it is important to note, that is $20k at a BMW dealer. So, similar to dog years, maybe $5K at the right shop.

They have no incentive to actually troubleshoot, takes time and loading up the parts cannon is much more lucrative.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by marty333

Another background note which may or may not be relevant is that I'd been having an issue for a year or more where the electric drive shuts off intermittently for no good reason, saying "Too much power required" when it really shouldn't (i.e. on flat ground without acceleration).

These are the interesting details that emerge after a decent dialogue. I like your reasoning on the A/C affecting the drive system during heat, it sounds spot on.

You weren't using the heat when the above occurred, were you (bolded)? If so, more reason to suspect high current draw from the heater unit or associated cabling. Does that still happen now that the fuse is blown, or has it stopped occurring?

FYI, do me a favor and report back whatever you find out. Don't leave us hanging.

[marty333]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

...report back whatever you find out. Don't leave us hanging.

Yes indeed I will certainly update you. I really appreciate all of your advice. My local dealer couldn't get me a loaner for a week (no doubt they want to give me a new i5 to tempt me..), so I will drop it off on 9/4. The service advisor was encouraging, saying that his techs are the best and ought to be able to narrow down and fix the actual issue rather than just replacing everything. We will see.

He also said he thought the compressor code may have been a symptom and not the root cause. ...which reminds me: I had the previous technician give me the old compressor... I was surprised to see that it looks absolutely 100% pristine brand new. Nothing at all like the run-down compressor in the above video. It's easy to look at it and think that it's probably fine.

p.s. I just tested the aux heater and it does not seem to be heating (as expected if its EME fuse is blown). I hadn't noticed a correlation with the heater and the earlier e-drive issue. I'll have to report back on whether the e-drive problem is still there now. In general the e-drive is now very unreliable, presumably due to inability to cool itself.

[marty333]

I just want to give an update since it's been a month.

My local dealer shop received the same guidance from "TSARA," which is: to be safe, replace HV components xyz for $26,000+ (a non-starter for everyone involved).

I'd hoped to find an independent shop to replace the EME HV fuse, the same way Shaun Dobbie did in his excellent videos linked above by DrVenture. I think it's 50/50 that this would solve the problem. OTOH Shaun's story had a terrible ending: BMW condemned his car for having had the fuse replaced!

(Is this liable to happen in the USA as well?)

Alternatives are:

1. Get sufficient "Goodwill" help from the dealership and BMWNA on a trade-in for a new i4 lease ("win/win"). (Then never ever EVER go past the warranty!)
   
2. Keep the 530e as a cool-weather car as long as I can (I still love the car but I don't think it will pass Inspection).
   Frankly, also make sure as many people as possible know that BMW EVs *sometimes* self-destruct at 30,000 miles ("lose/lose").

Any other advice or ideas?? Thank you, all.

[DrVenture]

I don't know what the whole "condemned" thing is about. I am assuming that it has to do with the auto safety standards (MOT) in Europe. That BMW filed a report with the MOT which means the car cannot be licensed.

If the initial diagnosis was correct, then the EME is faulted. "Faults 21E720 8011C4 80120E stored relating to the complete by the compressor and unable to restore system after compressor replacement. Measured resistance to each cable and each component with adapter and cannot identify the KLE branch down from internal short in system, likely caused source of short which is likely intermittent. Since there is no definitive short BMW recommends we replace each component as good measure and best practice with high voltage."

But, that does not explain how the vehicle runs and charges with this fuse removed. A fuse that only serves the aux heat and A/C. If it was not the A/C compressor, it seems that the heater is the issue. If the heat is relay controlled, it may not appear shorted until the relay that controls the windings is energized. Which raises the question of how difficult it might be to gain access to the EME HV fuse or the heater components themselves for further testing.

I would not replace any fuses until I found the component that was causing the short or high current draw. It will just blow again and might cause other problems.

If you cannot find an independent shop to do more diagnosis at a reasonable cost, you may be better off with a goodwill offer from BMW.

[marty333]

By the way, something's been bothering me as I think back on the sequence of events.. something I think that you picked up on earlier DrVenture.

I have the list of fault Codes read by the dealer at first, and as I said the key one seemed to be this:

• 8011C4: Electric A/C Compressor: OBD, HV voltage sensor, short circuit to B-

So "A/C Compressor short-circuit", and they prescribed a new one. (Actually two separate dealerships prescribed this. Sorry but I abridged my saga above to omit a previous dealership that told me the same thing as the one that did the work.) I know the main failure mode for electric A/C Compressors is that their windings eventually short-circuit, so I was OK with this.

But am I right to infer that the EME fuse was not blown at that point, and it only blew later, when they tried to power things back up? Otherwise how did they expect to solve the problem with a new Compressor. After their work, there are many more Codes present, including:

• 030EE3: HVPM - start - shutdown reason - system interlock
• 0317C4: FuSi - HV - high voltage circuit open
• 0317D6: FuSi - HV - HVIL - input short-circuited to ground or output short-circuited to battery
• 0317D7: FuSi - HV - HVIL - input shorted to battery or output shorted to ground

It seems like this $26,000 fuse got blown on their watch. Could it have been some mistake on their part? Is this a valid point, or is it futile to second-guess their work like this?

For reference here is a picture of the Codes initially given to me by the first dealership:

[DrVenture]

If the first symptom was that A/C stopped working, but the A/C compressor was not actually bad, I would assume that it lost power. They checked codes and assumed a bad compressor, but never checked that there was power at the compressor. So, the new compressor again had no power and they realized that the fuse was blown, at that point.

I think one would need to go over the circuit schematics to see how everything is connected. I do wonder where the HV voltage sensor is situated. And also wonder if all the codes were cleared, which ones come back. Ignoring any codes that are present because the fuse is open.

If the fuse is accessible, an ammeter could be placed across the terminals to see how much current is being drawn. And rechecked with either the heat or A/C power lead disconnected. The initial report implies they used a device to monitor this at some connector location(s) - "Measured resistance to each cable and each component with adapter and cannot identify the KLE branch down from internal short in system..."

If no short, or abnormal current draw were detected, it could be intermittent or the component with the short is on the other side of a de-energized relay. I don't think one can go any further without hands-on and documentation. Not enough information otherwise.

The codes that you just posted, from first dealer, also include some faults in the "convenience charging system" and low state of charge with the HV battery. No idea if those are related to the blown EME HV fuse.

[marty333]

I might be ignorant of how OBD works, but it seems significant that the EME ECU didn't report errors until after the shop's work.

• The two separate dealer shops would've had to miss it.
• I have a BimmerLink app report that listed no errors from the EME ECU on the night of the initial A/C failure.

Then after the shop's work, BimmerLink shows many EME ECU errors (below), which to my untrained eye say, "blown EME fuse."

But I don't know if it's futile to try to second-guess the dealer's work like this, even if they *did* blow the fuse in the course of their work.

I intend to get some professional advice on that question this week.

(BTW, I really appreciate your advice and thoughtful input on the actual problem, DrVenture. I will certainly follow it if/when I run out of easier options.)

[marty333]

Hi just a follow-up to tie a bow on this thread. Over the past weeks I made some calls to local independent BMW shops, but I was not able to find one to take on my 530e EME Challenge.

My local dealership had offered to "help" me trade up to a new car, so we found a nice i4, and they offered me $20K trade-in allowance for my 530e. Since that's not all that far below the KBB value *before* the calamity, I took it.

I suppose it could mean that they actually DO know how to fix the EME, and that they'll do so and re-sell it for $30K. Perhaps it means those two dealerships and TSARA kind of "duped" me, but I just couldn't see a better way out. At least this way, 1) I'm not taking a five figure loss, 2) I'm driving around a very nice i4 (under full warranty!), and 3) my 530e may find a loving home, which oddly enough seems to mean something to me. So I choose to consider it a win/win.

Lastly let me say I appreciate all the advice and commiseration from everybody here. Best wishes all!

[DrVenture]

It is win/win. Be happy. Glad you posted the outcome.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by marty333

Perhaps it means those two dealerships and TSARA kind of "duped" me,

different shops have different engineers of different abilities, let's just say.

these things are very complicated to fix. not every shop have an engineer who should/could have been a NASA scientist. but some people are very intelligent and with the right training and knowledge stream they will get hybrids. otherwise, they can't touch it.