[klipseracer]

So I've been reading a little bit about specific records, values or codes that are stored inside our DME that I'm assuming can not be cleared before a trip to the dealer. I haven't been able to find a thread specifically dedicated to this although I'm sure there is one because I may not be using the right search terms, but I suppose my question goes like this:

What kinds of information is stored on the DME that can not be cleared by a BT cable/procede etc? It seems like I've read if a PUMA case is opened, they will dig deep into the DME and find out everything they can beyond simple faults/codes. With a procede v3 revII and non-doomsday maps I'm willing to bet something gets stored in there that I can't just, 'clear'. Thanks for any insight.

[skitlz]

im kinda glad and sad that my warranty is almost up.. Its almost more of a hassle to return back to stock then to just pay the cost for the repairs. But as for your question, not sure. In regards to codes and stuff though, i find it funny that my SA laughed at me once mentioning that i drive with the DTC off alot, since he pulled up how many times i had disabled it.

Something to think about for the procede users for one, since i thought that button used on the new procede, i forget.(code clearing maybe)

[balance]

this is the exact worry i have from my thread
just didn't know how to put it..

[enrita]

When you delete codes they are gone forever. They can only find info about a car problem if there is a code. The dme only stores values when a code is tripped.

[supracg]

if im not mistaken, the ecu does store your history for values of boost, rpms, etc...but with a piggy the ecu never sees values for these parameters that are different than stock since a piggy 'tricks' the ecu into thinking everything is fine.

however, with flashes the ecu isnt being tricked so the real value is actually being stored (lets say the actual 13-15 psi rather than the stock 8 psi)

my question is, if piggies sometimes trigger tuner codes for radical boost values or other parameters, then the ecu obviously isnt being tricked....so whats the deal

[rismo]

Originally Posted by skitlz

im kinda glad and sad that my warranty is almost up.. Its almost more of a hassle to return back to stock then to just pay the cost for the repairs. But as for your question, not sure. In regards to codes and stuff though, i find it funny that my SA laughed at me once mentioning that i drive with the DTC off alot, since he pulled up how many times i had disabled it.

Something to think about for the procede users for one, since i thought that button used on the new procede, i forget.(code clearing maybe)

Interesting, but I doubt your SA can really retrieve this from your DME. The only place that these values might get stored is in the FASTA data.
This information is for indepth analysis purpose for the Munich HQ. Even BMW's own dealerships cannot get access to this.

An reason BMW HQ would look into this is when you have expensive repairs under warranty on your car and BMW wants to be sure that you did not tune your car. Personally I only know about a couple of cases were BMW did use this information against customers.

The dealership can more or less read out the same information as a BT cable can do....

At least this is my understanding. There is by the way information stored on your key. Your fuel level, milleage,service warnings, errors and other basic stuff is stored on it.

[Fernflex]

Maybe burger or vishnu know something about this!!!

Anyone?

[Glowin]

I asked that exact question pretty much from EAS and GIAC in this thread http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335806, and at first got the run around IMO as they weren't directly answering the question, then when pressing them on it, got confirmation that values ARE stored:

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

The DME absolutely stores certain values (top speed, boost, rev limit, etc), no matter what tune is used (flash or piggyback), this information can be retrieved for warranty purposes or accident investigations.

BMW dealers do not possess the specific equipment needed to retrieve programming, only overwrite when a new module is replacement or an update is available. However, BMWNA can access this data - which is reserved for specialized cases (typically PUMA related).

AND

Originally Posted by Austin@GIAC

Contrary to the scare tactics that others have posted, there are no issues with stored values and warranty. These items have been in VW/Audi/Porsche software for years and have never created issues. Techs do not have the tools to view them.

As noted, experiences will vary greatly from dealer to dealer. We have had quite a few customers go into the dealer and be serviced without issues. That does not mean we would recommend doing so. If you are worried about it, a flash back to stock would be strongly recommended.

[Ilma]

The only people who know what is stored in the DME from a PUMA case download are the BMW engineers themselves.

Not even the dealer has access to that level of data.

That's probably why BMW downloads it directly - so no one will know what's in there and then leak it out so that the aftermarket is able to figure a way around it.

The upside is that they can't possible store every bit of data for each and every drive. It would quickly exceed the storage capacity of the DME.

I will profess to having been told by a legitimite source that although data regarding your daily drive is constantly being stored, there is something you can do to reduce the risk of detection.

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by Ilma

I will profess to having been told by a legitimate source that although data regarding your daily drive is constantly being stored, there is something you can do to reduce the risk of detection.

and that is......

[jblackwell]

Come over to the shop this week and I'll walk you over to a technical shop foreman at the BMW store for a definitive answer.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Ilma

The only people who know what is stored in the DME from a PUMA case download are the BMW engineers themselves.

Not even the dealer has access to that level of data.

Exactly

Originally Posted by Glowin

I asked that exact question pretty much from EAS and GIAC in this thread http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335806, and at first got the run around IMO as they weren't directly answering the question, then when pressing them on it, got confirmation that values ARE stored:

I wouldn't consider 2 posts "pressing", but it seems your question was answered quite well in that thread.

There is no probable cause to go into the DME unless there is a specific warranty claim under investigation (usually involving a PUMA case). The DME is always storing values during use whether it be for environmental adaptations, driving habits and even for BMW's own use as well as crash data if involved in accident investigations.

No offense - but those that live in constant paranoia really shouldn't be modding their BMWs, the platform is already great in current form. Aftermarket parts (including tunes) have been butting heads for years, this current generation of BMWs doesn't change anything in this cat and mouse game.

Dealers cannot detect DME flashes, but higher boost is a usually telltale sign and its pretty much the only way to make power from the N54. However, lower stages are safe enough in where there is very little chance in damage or part failure since the thresholds are not being pushed, but still make incredible power on a relatively stock platform in under an hour.

GIAC's Stage2 will be a different story - and its why we will be recommending a certain criteria in order to run the flash. Basically - it's not for everyone, just for those after serious power.

All actions leave a paper (or data) trail of some sort - it's a result of technology at its current level, this forum is another example of this. Even in an extreme case the DME was replaced, there will always be record of the module control number sold on a particular date (married to a VIN), even if it was coded to your vehicle after someone catastrophic happened and someone was trying to pull a fast one on a warranty claim.

Don't let paranoia ruin your BMW driving experience. It's certainly not affecting others here, with the power figures to prove it.

[Bimmer This]

I'm pretty sure that with the way auto manufacturers are doing diagnostic these days, there are probably codes that only they can see. If they already have "hidden codes" there probably more to it then what they are telling us.

[klipseracer]

I'm asking because if I have a little bit of turbo whine and the car has had some ticking even before modding my car at all, will they be starting a PUMA case over this? It sounds like rebuilding the head/replacing the turbos would be quite a lot of warranty work to be done to the car. These are problems the car had before any modifications and didn't realize what the turbo whining was until afterward.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Bimmer This

I'm pretty sure that with the way auto manufacturers are doing diagnostic these days, there are probably codes that only they can see. If they already have "hidden codes" there probably more to it then what they are telling us.

Their techs would need to know about them as well. Any code can be cleared with the proper equipment (shadow or otherwise).

Originally Posted by klipseracer

I'm asking because if I have a little bit of turbo whine and the car has had some ticking even before modding my car at all, will they be starting a PUMA case over this? It sounds like rebuilding the head/replacing the turbos would be quite a lot of warranty work to be done to the car. These are problems the car had before any modifications and didn't realize what the turbo whining was until afterward.

That will be up to your particular dealership to decide. If a flash was present, you would always have the DME returned to stock programming as a backup file is always taken before a flash is performed. This give added assurance before handing the keys over to your dealer.

I will make clear that I'm not at all condoning engine abuse and having BMW pick up the tab. However, if there is a legitimate premature part failure - that's what the warranty is for.

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Their techs would need to know about them as well. Any code can be cleared with the proper equipment (shadow or otherwise).



That will be up to your particular dealership to decide. If a flash was present, you would always have the DME returned to stock programming as a backup file is always taken before a flash is performed. This give added assurance before handing the keys over to your dealer.

I will make clear that I'm not at all condoning engine abuse and having BMW pick up the tab. However, if there is a legitimate premature part failure - that's what the warranty is for.

I have a procede stg 1. Only been installed for a week or two and I have never tracked or drag'd the car. I have a video of the engine ticking from many months ago and a thread here on the forums asking if it was normal long before I started modding.

Anyone who has had a tune and their turbos fixed or that notorious ticking fixed let me know.

[jblackwell]

Originally Posted by klipseracer

I'm asking because if I have a little bit of turbo whine and the car has had some ticking even before modding my car at all, will they be starting a PUMA case over this? It sounds like rebuilding the head/replacing the turbos would be quite a lot of warranty work to be done to the car. These are problems the car had before any modifications and didn't realize what the turbo whining was until afterward.

Get the car over here without the Procede and I'll get it through the shop without it hitting the radar...

[tom @ eas]

^^ Now that's service.

[Bimmer This]

Well, I don't think a dealer will "dig" as hard for whinning turbo's unless it caused way more damage then expected. Like broken turbine blades which also took out he heads. Just as long as it ain't obvious, they won't spend too much time into looking. I know my dealer is that way.

[jblackwell]

Originally Posted by Bimmer This

Well, I don't think a dealer will "dig" as hard for whinning turbo's unless it caused way more damage then expected. Like broken turbine blades which also took out he heads. Just as long as it ain't obvious, they won't spend too much time into looking. I know my dealer is that way.

+1

These cars are known for turbo issues and it's almost expected. Whining turbos to rattling wastegates, a dealer is more than happy to scoop the parts gross and labor profit at BMW's expense on a legitimately failed component.

If the turbos fail as a result of the engine chewing up a valve and spitting it through the turbine and you bring it in looking hacked up and draped in mods, you're pushing the envelope and deserve further investigation. It's in the best interest of the dealer to NOT void your warranty, provide you good service, and hope you return when your HPFP fails next week.

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by jblackwell

+1

These cars are known for turbo issues and it's almost expected. Whining turbos to rattling wastegates, a dealer is more than happy to scoop the parts gross and labor profit at BMW's expense on a legitimately failed component.

If the turbos fail as a result of the engine chewing up a valve and spitting it through the turbine and you bring it in looking hacked up and draped in mods, you're pushing the envelope and deserve further investigation. It's in the best interest of the dealer to NOT void your warranty, provide you good service, and hope you return when your HPFP fails next week.

I agree with this, however I'll need to install my stock charge pipe and airbox(which doesn't have the duct from the grill to the airbox). Removing the procede is easy, that one, 'bad' night I figured it all out and I can install or uninstall it in less than 15 minutes given proper lighting. I also know that BMW allots them a certain number of 'repair dollars' per time frame to do these repairs with, not sure what would happen if they were to go over this allotment. Let me order the stock airbox intake duct and I'll remove the mods which shouldn't take long and I'll be dropping by there.

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Exactly

I wouldn't consider 2 posts "pressing", but it seems your question was answered quite well in that thread.

There is no probable cause to go into the DME unless there is a specific warranty claim under investigation (usually involving a PUMA case). The DME is always storing values during use whether it be for environmental adaptations, driving habits and even for BMW's own use as well as crash data if involved in accident investigations.

No offense - but those that live in constant paranoia really shouldn't be modding their BMWs, the platform is already great in current form. Aftermarket parts (including tunes) have been butting heads for years, this current generation of BMWs doesn't change anything in this cat and mouse game.

Dealers cannot detect DME flashes, but higher boost is a usually telltale sign and its pretty much the only way to make power from the N54. However, lower stages are safe enough in where there is very little chance in damage or part failure since the thresholds are not being pushed, but still make incredible power on a relatively stock platform in under an hour.

GIAC's Stage2 will be a different story - and its why we will be recommending a certain criteria in order to run the flash. Basically - it's not for everyone, just for those after serious power.

All actions leave a paper (or data) trail of some sort - it's a result of technology at its current level, this forum is another example of this. Even in an extreme case the DME was replaced, there will always be record of the module control number sold on a particular date (married to a VIN), even if it was coded to your vehicle after someone catastrophic happened and someone was trying to pull a fast one on a warranty claim.

Don't let paranoia ruin your BMW driving experience. It's certainly not affecting others here, with the power figures to prove it.

Tom, I'm not paranoid at all, in case that's the impression you seem to have gotten. Rather, I prefer to be educated on the topic and then decide how much risk I'm willing to take. The reason I didn't feel you were answering the OP's questions (and mine - I just repeated his), was because he asked simply if it's true that the DME stores values, and if so, which ones.

Rather than replying to that question with a simple yes, and it's x,y and z values, your answer initially was "Contrary to popular belief, SAs are not bad people and typically do not go searching for reasons in order to void warranties unless there is a definitive need or claim being made in which they would have to investigate further."

That to me was a reassurance to the OP not to worry, rather than answering his question and educating everyone. His question was not "Has there even been a problem with stored values?"

Hope that's clear why maybe we were on different pages it seems. And thank you for answering my questions in the end, by the way.

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

That will be up to your particular dealership to decide. If a flash was present, you would always have the DME returned to stock programming as a backup file is always taken before a flash is performed. This give added assurance before handing the keys over to your dealer.

With respect to the backup stock file, let's say you back it up before someone does a flash, and they were on version 32. Then they go into the dealer, without being flashed back to stock, and the dealer ends up updating their software again, this time to version 34. If they were to later come back to you to flash to stock, you'd only be able to flash them to 32, and if the person goes in, they'd spot he's not on the right version. Am I correct?

If so, then is the best thing for someone to have their stock file backed up each time they get the ECU flashed by the dealer?