[Patrys@BimmerTech]

My car is a US spec 2007 E92 335i. I bought it 17 months ago in Poland.
As I found out after the purchase it had had a HPFP replaced early in 2007.
Since day one I have been using only the best Shell V-Power fuel available in Poland and had no issues with my HPFP until around 1 week ago when I had the first long crank.
After a few days of long cranks in the mornings I knew my HPFP was about to die.
My car was not under warranty and I did not want to spend money on a new pump, so I decided to try the latest software - ISTA/P v37.
I only flashed my engine ECU to quickly check if this could help and since that day I have not had a single long crank

It seems like BMW have finally found a software solution.

[shifterboy45]

if its not the software -- it the HDP!!!!

but its "the software" inserts a fix for the problem as it stands -- for some it will be the ultimate fix and for others no..

but while you're at, it maybe you could figure out why those heat shields keep coming off the Space Shuttle -- it think the astronauts ought get the NTHSA involved it that one too..

its all mechanical/electrical, thus prone to failure at some point right?

[shifterboy45]

in a our imperfect world scenarios 100k in MORE than acceptable for any automotive component - outside of a complete engine assembly.

i concede that these failures are more than typical or expected... but the continual warning that this is just a band aid type of repair without seeing the long term results, is like the boy that cried wolf

[twinship]

To the OP - Did you flash the new software, or did the dealer do it?

If you did it yourself, pls provide details.

Thx!

[Sparky66]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Unfortunately the software upgrade does not prevent the HPFP from failing. It cycles the electric fuel pump longer to build system pressure because the HPFP doesn't hold the pressure like it's suppose to. The HPFP will eventually fail, it will just take a little longer. When it does fail it could be any time or place, not just when you go to start the car in the morning.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

The point is HPFPs aren't suppose to fail in 0-30,000 miles, especially multiple times. Putting a bandaid on the HPFP so it fails at 10K instead of 5K isn't a solution, it's a bandaid for a problem that still exists. It's not a permanent solution for anyone. An acceptable failure rate is at 100K.

How do we know if this was not a software issue to begin with??
It's quite feasible that if the engine was starting before the HPFP was fully primed at full pressure, it may have been running dry for a second or so......it's never good having metal to metal contact.

At the end of the day the HPFP is a pump with lubrication requirements like any other pump, which requires to be primed for lubrication at every engine start up and in this case the fuel being fully charged into the HPFP prior to it's operation is the mandatory lubrication which may have been missing and contributed to its failure.

Software upgrade ISTA/P v37 addresses this issue and I believe the HPFP pump is now primed by the low pressure pump as soon as you open the cars door and insert the car key.

[Sparky66]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

As noted elsewhere in these forums the HPFP has ALWAYS been primed by the electric fuel pump.

This point has always been understood and has always been mandatory on all EFI engines but if the low pressure pump was not pumping before you press the engine start up button, there is a good chance the engine's HPFP was not seeing full pressure when the engine fires up.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

The problem is the HPFP does not hold pressure and build pressure fast enough when it's failing. As a result it can not inject the proper volume of fuel until the system builds up proper pressure. Thus long cranks and a gradual power loss in many a dying HPFP.

Is there any data showing a new pump not being able to sustain the high pressure loads and is it subjective to priming issues through lack of prior lubrication issues? The key word is when it's "failing".
Of course, once the pump has been run dry once, the damage has already been done........(the horse has bolted) and it's only a matter of time before it fully fails.
Chances are that if the pump has always been properly primed at every startup we may never have had these issues to begin with. Yes, I know this is subjective and open to discussion, but where is the data that proves new pumps can't hold pressure and that they're design is faulty?

Originally Posted by TrackRat

All I'm doing is reporting factual technical info. What you do with it is totally up to you. If people want to believe the software bandaid is the solution, so be it. People with the software upgrade continue to have their HPFPs fail because the HPFP issue isn't resolved by running the electric fuel pump longer. It's just a bandaid.

Where is this factual technical info and are these people who have had their pumps replaced had the software upgraded to the recent ISTA/P v37 ?
Just because you replace a damaged part with a new one and then subject it to the same old operating parameters, doesn't mean it won't fail again.......chances are it will.
The problem could have always been upstream of the issue at hand.

[Patrys@BimmerTech]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Sparky I'm not interested in arguing. If your belief is the latest software is the HPFP solution so be it. It just ain't so though I wish it were. When enough people with the 943 HPFP and the latest software still have failures then maybe you'll understand. Sorry man I wish this WAS the solution, but it's not.

I am not going to argue about the software fix either, but maybe the reason why a HPFP fails eventually even with the latest software is because it got damaged before the software was updated. I can imagine that those long cranks do not help the HPFP, so if the software is updated before or soon after a first long crank happens this can really be a fix

At least for now it seems to work for me... Time will tell how long...

[Patrys@BimmerTech]

Originally Posted by twinship

To the OP - Did you flash the new software, or did the dealer do it?

If you did it yourself, pls provide details.

Thx!

I did it myself, but it's not something people should do at home. It's a risky process, because you can damage your car (control units).

Originally Posted by Sparky66

Software upgrade ISTA/P v37 addresses this issue and I believe the HPFP pump is now primed by the low pressure pump as soon as you open the cars door and insert the car key.

That is correct. When I unlock my door with a remote I can hear something at the rear of the car. This can be my low pressure pump priming the HPFP.
I did not have this sound before.

[Sparky66]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Sparky I'm not interested in arguing. If your belief is the latest software is the HPFP solution so be it. It just ain't so though I wish it were. When enough people with the 943 HPFP and the latest software still have failures then maybe you'll understand. Sorry man I wish this WAS the solution, but it's not.

TrackRat don't consider this as arguing but rather more as debating subjective information.
You must agree that till we see hard evidence of failures with both 943 HPFP installed with the latest software, your mirror ball prediction is all speculation at this stage....unless you're physic.
I noticed you argue this point on other threads on this forum, so maybe you can fill in the gaps and elaborate a little further into your knowledge of why this is without a doubt, on your behalf.........not the solution!
If you are indeed delivering us with factual information, please back it up with hard evidence...........that is all I ask.

[bulldog_yyc]

Originally Posted by Patrys

I did it myself, but it's not something people should do at home. It's a risky process, because you can damage your car (control units).

how did you do this from home!???

[AltecBX]

Originally Posted by Sparky66

Software upgrade ISTA/P v37 addresses this issue and I believe the HPFP pump is now primed by the low pressure pump as soon as you open the cars door and insert the car key.

Which one is it? What about people with CA which doesn't require a key to be inserted.

[dmurray14]

Originally Posted by Patrys

I did it myself, but it's not something people should do at home. It's a risky process, because you can damage your car (control units).




That is correct. When I unlock my door with a remote I can hear something at the rear of the car. This can be my low pressure pump priming the HPFP.
I did not have this sound before.

Hey Patryk,

Which did you use? 37.1? I may give it a try myself.

Dan

[AltecBX]

Originally Posted by Patrys

That is correct. When I unlock my door with a remote I can hear something at the rear of the car. This can be my low pressure pump priming the HPFP.
I did not have this sound before.

What happens when you turn off your car and leave it unlocked. You go back in and restart the engine?
Are you saying that the unlock button is a trigger for the priming of fuel? If so, can you imagine someone close to their car and sitting down on their key-fob accidentally pressing the unlock button.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

Which one is it? What about people with CA which doesn't require a key to be inserted.

Yesterday I opened my trunk to get something, with no intention of driving anywhere. I heard the fuel pump once I opened the trunk....

[AltecBX]

Originally Posted by John 070

Yesterday I opened my trunk to get something, with no intention of driving anywhere. I heard the fuel pump once I opened the trunk....

That's crazy. I then see this software issue more of an issue in the long run. This is more wear and tear on the pump than anything else.

[dmurray14]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

That's crazy. I then see this software issue more of an issue in the long run. This is more wear and tear on the pump than anything else.

Huh? Most cars prime the fuel pump as soon as they "wake up"

[AltecBX]

Originally Posted by dmurray14

Huh? Most cars prime the fuel pump as soon as they "wake up"

But with every click of the unlock button?



If this is an issue that BMW is aware of and a software update is required to prevent the pump from failing, why not make it a recall and get the software update for free.

[Patrys@BimmerTech]

Originally Posted by turkish335

how did you do this from home!???

I took one of my OBD interfaces and my laptop, went down to the garage, connected my battery charger, plugged in the interface, started the software, selected which ECU I wanted to flash and after 15 minutes... done !

Originally Posted by dmurray14

Hey Patryk,

Which did you use? 37.1? I may give it a try myself.

Dan

I don't remember exactly
It was 37.x for sure...

Originally Posted by AltecBX

What happens when you turn off your car and leave it unlocked. You go back in and restart the engine?
Are you saying that the unlock button is a trigger for the priming of fuel? If so, can you imagine someone close to their car and sitting down on their key-fob accidentally pressing the unlock button.

The unlock button triggers the priming, but not every time. I have noticed that if I return to the car after 10 minutes and unlock it the pump will not be primed, but if this is more like 1-2 hours it will be primed.
There has to be some logic here which controls when the pump is primed.

Originally Posted by AltecBX

But with every click of the unlock button?

If this is an issue that BMW is aware of and a software update is required to prevent the pump from failing, why not make it a recall and get the software update for free.

For sure it's not with every click of the unlock button.

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by Patrys

I took one of my OBD interfaces and my laptop, went down to the garage, connected my battery charger, plugged in the interface, started the software, selected which ECU I wanted to flash and after 15 minutes... done !

What tool did you use and where did you get the flash file ?

[Patrys@BimmerTech]

Originally Posted by R1000K3

What tool did you use and where did you get the flash file ?

Winkfp. There is no official place where you can get the ISTA/P flash files, so you need to know people who know people...

[Sparky66]

Round and round we go...............

Originally Posted by TrackRat

You need to understand how the fuel system operates to understand or debate the subject matter. None of my comments are speculation. They are based on actual fuel system pressure measurements and understanding of how the fuel system functions.

Basically, SIB 125506 gives me all the information I need and backs up my theory that the HPFP may never have been the root cause of it's failure to begin with. Just because the obvious is breaking, doesn't necessarily lead to that component contributing to it's own failure. The fuel system comprises of many parts which all feed back to each other via hardware and software diagnostics to make it operate within tolerance of it's serviceable life.
When you break down a EFI fuel system's operation, it's basically not overly complicated . Priming HPFP's using low pressure pumps is common knowledge and not exactly rocket science........heck, it's been done over the last two decades on just about every EFI based car I can think of. What is your background and how did you take measurements to establish that new pumps are failing and not holding the required line pressure to the injectors?
One must remember that it only takes one component of the Fuel system to fail to cause issues.

Fuel system components such as:

• Sensitivity of injection pump diagnostic software
• Internal failure of a High-pressure Injection Pump
• Failure of electric low pressure fuel pump
• Clogged or defective fuel filter
• Failure of the low or high-pressure sensors
• Defective Low and High pressure fuel check valves
• Defective Low and High Pressure Fuel Regulators
• Failure of a volume control valve
• Defective fuel injector
• Intermittent electrical connection problem (wire and/or connector) in the fuel delivery system.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

The factual info is this:

1. The low pressure fuel pump has always supplied the HPFP on start-up so it isn't running without fuel in the system for lubrication on start-up

Agreed no one said it was running without fuel but if the pump is not at full pressure at start up you introduce cavitation issues which damages the pump.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

2. When the HPFP fails it will not hold the proper fuel system pressure overnight - which can be measured in a system pressure leakdown test

Agreed, the pressure must reach at least 4.75 bar on start up and be above 3.75 bar 10 minutes after shutdown. So obviously if these parameters are not met and out of range, the pump has already been subjected to cavitation issues leading to the start of a failing pump.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

3. Cycling the electric low pressure fuel pump longer via software increases the system pressure faster to compensate for the failing HPFP - and this can be measured

Agreed, it is a band aid fix for already damaged pumps. Obviously, if a new pump had never been subjected to improper priming, we might not even be discussing this in this thread. Basically it should of been operating the way you describe from the beginning and BMW finally agrees.

Originally Posted by TrackRat

4. Cycling the low pressure fuel pump longer does not prevent the HPFP from failing as they continue to fail even with the new software

How many of the newly installed pumps with the most current software have had a failure? Please provide the link so that we may see them. Till this data is forthcoming your assumptions don't hold any water.

Let's be honest, this is starting to sound like........what came first, the chicken or the egg?

[bulldog_yyc]

Originally Posted by Patrys

Winkfp. There is no official place where you can get the ISTA/P flash files, so you need to know people who know people...

actually you can download them from http://www.bmwtechinfo.com/
$30/day

I am more interested in the hardware part of the interface, was it a BT pro cable you used?