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      05-19-2010, 11:49 AM   #1
Tonybest
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Brake question for Track

My main worry is brakes. I have the extended wear&tear warranty for my brakes and other stuff. The dealer won't change them until the warning light on the cluster comes on. Which it hasn't. I think it's fair play.

Before my last LCMT - HPDE event, my brake pads were at 60% front and 50% back. I know I wore off a few mmeters off of them since.

What should I do?

A) nothing since my next event is a 1 day at LCMT (June 7th)
I did do 6 track days now on my originals.
If I do nothing, my following event is a two day event at Watkins Glen the following week, so I would need to act fast as to have them replaced and properly bedded.

B) buy a set of pads as spares to bring along just in case. Now this is where plenty of questions come up.
I don't know how to change them. I know it's not complicated but I still would need help and the necessary tools with me at the track.
And if I install them, Will I have to change back to the "burnt" originals as to get my "under warranty" replacement.
Secondly, the dealer doesn't want to buy them back from me if I don't use them, and I would probably need to replace the originals after June 7th.

Who would have thunk it that purchasing the extended warranty would cause me so much headaches?
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      05-19-2010, 12:35 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
My main worry is brakes. I have the extended wear&tear warranty for my brakes and other stuff. The dealer won't change them until the warning light on the cluster comes on. Which it hasn't. I think it's fair play.
That's their typical line but you CAN have brake items replaced without the wear sensors being tripped. For example, I toasted through my rotors because I use track pads, well, on the track. I took the car in to get the rotors replaced after reinstalling the stock pads which had plenty of life left to them and were nowhere near tripping the sensor wire. I told them that I had worn through my pads and replaced them myself because I had an extra set. They rolled their eyes and replaced the rotors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
Before my last LCMT - HPDE event, my brake pads were at 60% front and 50% back. I know I wore off a few mmeters off of them since.
You're probably still fine. The fronts likely wore a bit more than the rears, though. Unless you're working with like 4-5mm of pad material, I think you'll pass tech. That said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
B) buy a set of pads as spares to bring along just in case. Now this is where plenty of questions come up.
I don't know how to change them. I know it's not complicated but I still would need help and the necessary tools with me at the track.
And if I install them, Will I have to change back to the "burnt" originals as to get my "under warranty" replacement.
I'd go this route. Get a set of track pads (ahem, Hawk HT10s) as they'll work wonders for your overall track day experience and it'll accelerate your need for new rotors! Removing pads is extremely simple, it really is, and you don't need a lot of tools at all. You may need help the first time you try but, to be honest, you probably only need a decent DIY guide. Perhaps someone looking over your shoulder can be comforting which, at the track, there is no shortage of!

Here's what I'd do. I'd order a set of track pads. Install them at home a few days before you head to the track so you can take your time and refer to all of the DIY guides that are out there. Take note of the tools you use and bring them to the track. You can either do the swap back to stock at the track or when you get back home. Just be sure to bed the track pads in after you install them. Do 5 hard stops just shy of ABS from 70-50 and then do 5 hard stops from 60-10mph. Don't come to a complete stop until you've given the pads/rotors about 5 minutes of cruising to cool down. Oh... if you do this at night and you go with track pads be prepared for sparks flying everywhere. Insanely cool if you expect it. Insanely scary if you don't.

And a quick word about running track pads on the street. They're mostly just going to be loud. But you simply need to be aware that their cold bite is going to be marginal so plan ahead. They'll stop fine if you clamp down hard in an emergency and they'll stop fine if you get some heat in them.
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      05-19-2010, 01:41 PM   #3
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Great all-round info here... thanks mate.

I will probably look into purchasing a set of HT10s after my visit with the dealer this Friday.
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      05-19-2010, 07:19 PM   #4
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Since you guys are talking about pads... I plan on doing some autox and maybe some track days later in the summer, I will be definitely be changing pads and rotors before I go to the track day. I was think axis ultimate pads, will they hold up for a track day or should I look into something else? For rotors I will probably go with a set of Stoptech slotted rotors.
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      05-20-2010, 02:03 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice84 View Post
Since you guys are talking about pads... I plan on doing some autox and maybe some track days later in the summer, I will be definitely be changing pads and rotors before I go to the track day. I was think axis ultimate pads, will they hold up for a track day or should I look into something else? For rotors I will probably go with a set of Stoptech slotted rotors.
I've run the Axxis Ultimates on the street and track and found them to be competent performance street pads but lacking when it came to the track. I'd say they are only marginally better than the stock pads on the track. For beginners at an AutoX event you may find they offer a modest bump in braking performance but that may not really justify the swap from stock. Both the Ultimates and the stocks lose their composure when pushed. Imagine placing a piece of sandpaper on a glass table and running your finger across the sandpaper and then on to the glass... that's the way I describe how it feels. Everything is all good and then you reach a point (a temperature, really) where you aren't getting that bite.

Common wisdom says that for your first few days on track you won't be nearly fast enough or good enough to significantly test the various parts of the brake system (pads, rotors, fluid, etc) so running a good street pad serves just fine. Also, running a performance street pad (or stock for that matter) up to when you feel the effects of brake fade can actually be a good idea as it'll make you aware of what that feels like (scary but important to know) and what causes it to happen (brake intensive track/corner, dragging the pad on the rotor for too long, etc).

That said, I can't speak more strongly in favor of running a real track pad once you've found some confidence behind the wheel and entering brake zones with speed. There simply is no pad made that serves as a good track pad while being "streetable". But, I should also say, I've run both Hawk HT10s and Ferodo DS3000s on the street (usually for a few days after track events) and found them to be acceptable albeit a bit spooky at times when they don't bite very well when cold (ahem, and louder than Boston city buses)! I ran with the stock pads for my first 2 events in the Z4MC even though I had lots of track experience in my previous car. I was cooking the stock pads in the first session out but I kept them installed for one more event before upgrading to gain experience in handling the car when the brakes are getting a bit dicey. With that experience and now the Hawk HT10s, I have quite a bit of comfort braking very late.

As for the slotted rotors, those are definitely a solid upgrade choice when you've chewed through your stock rotors. An upgrade you may consider right off the bat is a set of stainless steel lines and better fluid (Motul RBF600). The stock rubber lines lead to some pretty squishy pedal and that isn't enjoyable regardless of what pad you're running.
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      05-20-2010, 05:20 AM   #6
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In the three years of track sessions this is what I have done:

Changed to performance brake fluid (ATE Blue). Next step is RBF600 but I am still not at a level where the difference between the two would be noticeable.
I have upgraded to SS Braided brake lines as I started feeling some mushiness at the end of the track days. Not a comfortable feeling, but happy I did experience it.
And now will be switching brake pads trackside with the HT10s as you have suggested. I won't forget to do the proper bedding-in steps.

Thanks for your invaluable comments and tips.
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      05-20-2010, 07:25 AM   #7
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re SS lines.
I see several 4 line sets available.
Does anyone make a complete 6 line set?
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      05-20-2010, 08:50 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCz04Bimmer View Post
You're probably still fine. The fronts likely wore a bit more than the rears, though. Unless you're working with like 4-5mm of pad material, I think you'll pass tech.
If he's running with DSC on then the rears could wear the same or even faster than the fronts depending on how out of control the car thinks it is.
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      05-20-2010, 09:04 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jragan View Post
If he's running with DSC on then the rears could wear the same or even faster than the fronts depending on how out of control the car thinks it is.
DSC off at all times... except when deemed necessary i.e. First ever session on a new track, first "wet" session.

I know the padding on the rear pads are skinnier than the ones in the fronts when new. Therefore, last night I checked how thick they were... the fronts are still thicker than the rears as of now.
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      05-20-2010, 10:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jragan View Post
If he's running with DSC on then the rears could wear the same or even faster than the fronts depending on how out of control the car thinks it is.
Very true and good point. It can also wear pads left vs. right differently.

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Originally Posted by Tonybest View Post
DSC off at all times... except when deemed necessary i.e. First ever session on a new track, first "wet" session.
On certain tracks like Watkins Glen, I usually run with DSC on because I have no desire to perform any involuntary body work. Light blue Armco's don't match black very well! The Glen is a track where smoothness really pays off so I actually use DSC as a gauge of that. If I'm smooth and not upsetting the car, DSC stays silent. If I trip up, DSC gets involved and I know I did something less than ideal. On other tracks, like NJMP Lightning, I turn it off as that track has plenty of run-off and sliding around some turns is really the fastest (and most fun) way to get around. Oh and DSC is on whenever the track is even remotely wet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
re SS lines.
I see several 4 line sets available.
Does anyone make a complete 6 line set?
Sorry. Forgot to chime in on this. The StopTech kit I got from www.zeckhausen.com came with 6 lines.
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Last edited by JCz04Bimmer; 05-20-2010 at 10:58 AM..
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      05-20-2010, 11:58 AM   #11
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My stock pads need replacing so I was going to go ahead and upgrade instead of spending money twice... I will probably keep with the ultimates then and if I start enjoying/doing a lot of track days I will buy a set of pads specifically for the track.
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      05-20-2010, 12:54 PM   #12
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Sometimes a track is so technical that it doesn't matter how smooth you're being. My local roadcourse is very tight and very technical (lots of off-camber, power-on, up-hill curves) and the DSC fails miserably at handling these.
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      05-20-2010, 01:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jragan View Post
Sometimes a track is so technical that it doesn't matter how smooth you're being. My local roadcourse is very tight and very technical (lots of off-camber, power-on, up-hill curves) and the DSC fails miserably at handling these.
Oh absolutely. At Watkins Glen it really is only the turn dubbed "The Off Camber" (figures, right?) that upsets the DSC but it's a slow enough turn that it really doesn't impact exit speeds all that much. All of the other turns, if taken correctly, won't trip DSC at all. The up-hill climbs are in a straight line and ever turn has some decent camber to it. Now, on Lightning it's a completely different story! Turn 5 is uphill and off-camber and it starts with some non-straight-wheel braking and has you powering on well before the apex. Needless to say... DSC sh-ts itself anytime I forget to take it off.
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      05-20-2010, 01:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCz04Bimmer View Post
Oh absolutely. At Watkins Glen it really is only the turn dubbed "The Off Camber" (figures, right?) that upsets the DSC but it's a slow enough turn that it really doesn't impact exit speeds all that much. All of the other turns, if taken correctly, won't trip DSC at all. The up-hill climbs are in a straight line and ever turn has some decent camber to it. Now, on Lightning it's a completely different story! Turn 5 is uphill and off-camber and it starts with some non-straight-wheel braking and has you powering on well before the apex. Needless to say... DSC sh-ts itself anytime I forget to take it off.
Will I be meeting you on the 15 and 16th of June at WG?
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      05-20-2010, 03:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jragan View Post
Sometimes a track is so technical that it doesn't matter how smooth you're being. My local roadcourse is very tight and very technical (lots of off-camber, power-on, up-hill curves) and the DSC fails miserably at handling these.
My DSC doesn't like running lots of negative front camber (-3.5 degrees) with Toyo R888 tires regardless of what track I'm on (Pacific Raceways, Portland International Raceway, Spokane County Motorsports Park).
I've run several different high temperature brake pads (Hawk HT-10, Raybestos ST43, Porterfield R4 to name a few) over the years and keep coming back to Performance Friction pads. I'm currently running PF-01s front and rear. They are as rotor friendly as a track pad can be, have good initial bite when hot, and are reasonably linear under variable braking conditions. They're not cheap but I get at least thirty 30 minute sessions out of fronts and twice that out of the rears.
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      05-25-2010, 04:11 PM   #16
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Probably time to make the switch to Cool Carbon pads then! I would suggest looking at what we have in terms of brake pads. They're street driven pads that work very well on the track at the same time.
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      05-27-2010, 09:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
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bumping an old one....

Does anyone if a complete 6 line set is available for the Z4M ???

UUC makes them for other models but nothing listed for Z4M.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCz04Bimmer View Post
Sorry. Forgot to chime in on this. The StopTech kit I got from www.zeckhausen.com came with 6 lines.
I don't see the 6 line kit.
Zeck. shows;
F-$60 # 950.34001
R-$71 # 950.34523
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      05-28-2010, 11:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
I don't see the 6 line kit.
Zeck. shows;
F-$60 # 950.34001
R-$71 # 950.34523
Drop him an email. I know my order came with six hoses. The rear kit has four hoses in the baggie.
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      05-28-2010, 12:05 PM   #19
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^thanks
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      06-02-2010, 08:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCz04Bimmer View Post
Drop him an email. I know my order came with six hoses. The rear kit has four hoses in the baggie.
Got a reply from him.
He says the Z4M is a 4 line kit, not a 6.
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      06-03-2010, 09:02 AM   #21
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Errr... well I ordered my kit from him right off of the website and I got two bags. One for the front with two hoses. One for the rear with four hoses. Maybe ask him to check again and actually look at what would be shipped out? He's probably just going by memory and assuming our rear is the same as the E46M3.
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      06-03-2010, 09:57 AM   #22
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So I have done my car inspection. Brake pads are just below 50% all around. So It will be fine for one day (Monday) @ LCMT. Hopefully I will wear them out enough so that I get my free brake change on Tuesday. Just in time for the following week's 2 day at The Glen.

I already have the HT10s with me just in case the dealership doesn't want to change my brakes yet.
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