Some new info on the M3

[JK42]

Hi, I decided to post this seperately, since it got buried in an off-topic thread at first where interested parties probably wouldn't find it:

While picking up a customer car for testing (claimed some strange electrical issues.) today I talked about the new M3 with several people - highlights:

It could be that it's release will be pushed back to April and New York auto show, but not confirmed. People here still have their Geneva tickets in any case. The VIP private showing of a demo-car M3 has been re-scheduled for early April over here, with pre-invitations being re-sent and asked people to still wait for the actual date TBD. The engine will be 450hp at the least and both manual and SMG will be offered. The redline will apparently be less than 9000rpm due to problems with the engine being able to stay together forever with such a high RPM in Nordschleife test runs - but not much less - apparently it sounds like 8500rpm. (Forgot to mention this on the first post BTW.)

SMG will certainly be developed from the SMG III - during the SMG III program the gearbox department apparently didn't feel like they had adequate time finishing the product and would have liked to incorporate much more features that time didn't allow (kind of like back with the SMG II on the E46.) and less jerky drive modes, so that even the hardest-core person could accept the SMG and not think that he's faster than it with a manual (he won't be.) - with SMG you still have a straight touch to the road after all (as much as you do, with all the Valvetronic and DI technology of today.... but, no torque converters at least.)

The Coupé version should have perks and default options that the Sedan won't (depending on the market), and it'll come out first - it'll also be a little more expensive. There are rumors that the Coupé might be lighter overall as well (!)

On other M-related issues:
BMW is reportedly working on a hard roof Coupé/Convertible version of the 6-series because the E93 will instantly make the current rag-top 6er obsolete and it has already become non-desirable among the potential buyer segment because of this. BMW has a new target to leave the Z4 and the upcoming 2er (if it'll be the 2er) the only Cabriolets with ragtops. This will require some pretty heavy use of new lightweight construction materials, as the 650i and M6 Cabriolet are already monstrous tanks in their weight as it is with the ragtop, imagine what they would weight with a hardtop coupé-convertible if they didn't lighten things up overall. Also, the bi-turbo N54B30 engine is being added to the 5er and 7er engine lineup, probably replacing the now quite useless N62B40 V8 (which has the same power, less torque, more weight and more consumption.) In 2007 it should be offered in Lean mode which will make it's gas consumption about 35% less than the current version, which consumes about as much as the M54B30 used to (on which block the engine is based), and then some, due to the turbos.

On the other BMW news, the Z4 3.0si Coupé and Roadster still have silver painted PLASTIC front grilles on the front kidneys ()... Whoever designed that front grille should be fired.... It's horrible. One vandal kick on the street and your kidneys are gone. Drave a Z4 3.0si Coupé about 70kms (~40 miles) today to a remote parking lot to wait for some track and road testing to be done by yours truly later this week (that was the customer car with the "electric problems") and God I hate the electronic steering aid on it. It's like slush compared to the Z4 M Coupé - or any real BMW for that matter. There should be a general Internet warning for people not to buy these disasters, but just the M model of the Z4. Unless they wish a complete non-BMW-like steering. Even the drive back on the new X3 3.0sd was more fun. At least it has rack and pinion steering, and the xDrive was fun on the snowy roads.

P.S.
VAG's CEO resigned today admist corruption scandals and financial issues. BMW stock is doing well and going up almost daily. -

Also, Porsche is considering raising it's stake in the VAG group up to 29.9% which would make it a third owner of the huge European car-maker made up of merged companies that is destined for crapdom (And has already slided in that direction for several years), just like huge American car-makers that are made up of merged companies. That would mean in the German law that Porsche would be obligated to leave a takeover bid for the whole company. Can you imagine how run down VAG is when a hundred million dollar company is about to buy out a billion dollar company? Mergers are not always the answer, they tend to kill innovation and get rid of the talented people, and keep in the losers in any given company. Looks like that applies to the Auto industry as well.

P.P.S.

Saddam is soon joining Satan in Hell, as South Park: The Movie predicted years ago! Good job US! Good riddance!

Thanks and Best regards,

Jussi

[JK42]

VAG news:

To add to the VAG news, here's a sound bite:

Tuesday's surprise turn – close confidants of Messrs Pischetsrieder and Winterkorn and many supervisory board members knew nothing about it until earlier this week – led to speculation it could be related to a takeover battle in the truck sector.

VW's attempts to bring together MAN and Scania, in both of which it is the largest shareholder, has run into the opposition of Scania's second-largest shareholder.

Some also believe a clumsy effort to make MAN a big shareholder in VW to counter Porsche's influence did not help. Others suggested Mr Pischetsrieder may have had enough of the complex politics involved in running VW.

Mr Winterkorn, 59, is credited with turning Audi into a formidable force in the luxury car market. But analysts and investors view his communication and English skills as weak, and this led some to speculate that he could be a temporary appointment, possibly before the post is ultimately taken by Wolfgang Bernhard, the head of the VW brand.

Mr Bernhard is viewed as good at restructuring and as a competent engineer, but he has recently grown intensely frustrated at the slow pace of change at VW, people close to him said.

Mr Pischetsrieder's previous career low point came when he was ousted as head of BMW after the fiasco of the luxury carmaker's purchase of Rover of the UK.

I wonder what VAG will look like when it'll be owned by Porsche? Perhaps they'll then head in a little better direction. However, I never did have too much admiration for Porsche directly either - RUF makes Porsches the way they should originally make them. And their "entry-level" vehicles such as the Boxter S and Cayman S are WAY overpriced, terrible to steer and lose to their BMW competition 10-0 on all accounts (Z4 M Coupé and Roadster.) - including price, where BMW is considerably cheaper than either of those Porsches. Then again, it could be that VAG organization, being huge, would end up swallowing Porsche as just one of their premium brands, and Porsches would very soon start looking like Volkswagens/Audis inside, outside and especially under the bonnet - definitely not a good prospect given Porsche's engineering talent and innovation capabilities.

Best regards,

Jussi

[replicat]

Wow, thats alot to take in. Give me a minute.


Okay, first off, the news about the E92 M3 is great, despite the lowered redline, 8500RPM Is just fine.

And your confindence in the new M3 engine being 450hp is making me scared now. What are you're thoughts on it? What do you suppose will happen to the S85B50 engines, do you think that they will the get a bump in power that they can so easily achieve. 100hp per liter isnt that great, so if they bumped it up to 110 or 115hp per liter at this point in the game, it would still give the M5/6 That power difference compared to the M3 that people are looking for.

If you ask me, if it happens, BMW planned it all along.
The release of the M5/6, with the engine producing well below what it could max out at, so that when they released the new M3 with 450hp at mid production of the M5/6, they could bump the power of the S85B50 to about 550-570. Giving all M buyers what they want, well except for M5/6 buyers that got dooped out of the beefier engine. It was planned all along

Hmm, it may all seem a little crazy, but hey, it could happen.

On to the VAG news, thank the Gods, it will give me something to laugh at my freinds about for the next couple of weeks. I have a strong feeling that VAG will suck up Porsche, easily too. 30% Will come, and somebody at VAG maybe a new CEO will just decide, "thats too much" and just purchase them.

Thanks for the new news buddy.

-Pete.

[SpencerM3]

Awesome:rocks:

Keep the info coming. That is the first I've heard of 450hp, I was under the impression it would be more RS4-esque around 420hp.

[JK42]

I don't think the point is so much as to what the S85B50 will or will not have. The M5/M6 perform just fine as they are, the M3 will just be faster. But their higher torque and higher overall HPs should catch up in a straight line accelleration after about 100mph or so.

If you really want 550hp in your S85B50, Hartge can already give you that. (The H50 V10 which is a E90 Sedan with the S85B50 squeezed under the bonnet, complete new design by Hartge is officially 4.6s 0-100km/h (0-62mph.) - it's almost as heavy as the M5, though.

Best regards,

Jussi

[replicat]

No, lol I know that, (the hartage performance upgrades) and that the M5/6 will catch up after about 100mph. Thats what I guess, as well. Im talking about this from a marketing standpoint.

Why would BMW release the E92 M3 with 450 hp without giving the M5/6 a little boost. It would definitely be killing a few thousand sales of the cars. I mean c'mon, alot of buyers just want those cars for status, so the 50hp doesnt make a difference to them. But the majority of people that drop 100K on a BMW, do care about the cars power figures, and I think that they would want they're 100K M6 to leave the M3 in the dust.

Remember, we're talking about the general public here, they don't know what we know, as far as the car being able to catch up after 100mph or whatever. They just want to have the biggest baddest car, on the M lineup. And I think that 450hp 3550lbs (estimating of course) VS 500hp 4000lbs is way to easy to decide what to choose. Think about it.

[JK42]

Well, the old E46 M3 left the E39 M5 in the dust (barely, you can't really call it leaving in the dust)... so, I'm having a hard time figuring out why a smaller car should be slower than the larger car... Straight line accelleration even if the M3 is 0.1s faster from 0-62 they're gonna look very tied when they accellerate next to each other. You can find a video on the net of the new M5 and M6 doing the same and they're practically tied, even though the M6 "should be" .1 sec faster to 62mph.

Anyway, the M3 will be much never, will have a engine based on newer technology, as well as the transmission. Maybe they'll upgrade the M5/M6 performance on the facelift cycle, but I doubt it. I think the biggest loser is, and has always been the M6, because as a dynamic 2+2 it should really not be the tank that it is weightwise.

I think most people who want the biggest and baddest would just go for the coolest and most expensive with the most HP/torque, and that would still be the M6. They won't be looking at quarter mile times or .1 sec difference in 0-62mph...

I wouldn't be surprised if they do get an SMG upgrade on the facelift cycle, however.

Best regards,

Jussi

[replicat]

Good points, but I still believe in my theory. Along with a facelift, will come another 30-60hp.

[visor]

Wow, awesome news!

450 hp, 8500 rpm redline, choice of manual or SMG!

But why is the intro pushed later to April?
Problems with engines, production, etc?

[replicat]

My guess would be that there was an issue with final numbers. If it were a production problem I don't think that would delay the first unveilling, I think that something having to do with the a change in specs may have occured.

[cally_ive]

is it true that the E90 M3 will be 450 hp??? how many sec do u guy think it will take for it to take to 0-100km/h?? cos the V10 hartage E90 is 4.6 sec...
And will it be faster than the RS4??

[JK42]

Originally Posted by visor

Wow, awesome news!

450 hp, 8500 rpm redline, choice of manual or SMG!

But why is the intro pushed later to April?
Problems with engines, production, etc?

The intro MAY be pushed to April New York show - but this is not certain. There aren't any major production issues that I know of (perhaps except with the engine, but I'd think it's adjusted pretty far by now as well) - It's well underway to go into production in time.

Best regards,

Jussi

[JK42]

Originally Posted by cally_ive

is it true that the E90 M3 will be 450 hp??? how many sec do u guy think it will take for it to take to 0-100km/h?? cos the V10 hartage E90 is 4.6 sec...
And will it be faster than the RS4??

I don't know how many threads I've said this in, but it'll be 4.5s 0-100km/h.

The Hartge H50 V10 you're referring to is a 2-ton tank. (Weights a lot.)

Best regards,

Jussi

[cally_ive]

u mean the E90 M3 0-100 may take 4.5 sec??

[JK42]

Uhh. Yes. Will take, I believe was what I stated.

Best regards,

Jussi

[Romo]

And now the only thing that matters is the weight off the car. I hope the BMW E92 M3 will not exeed 1600KG, less would be far better..........................

[JK42]

Indeed. If it does exceed 1600kg I'm probably going to forget about it and go for the Z4 M Coupé instead. Rumor has it BMW is going to bring the new V8 from the upcoming M3 to the Z4's in a year or two, also... That would make a perfect race BMW if the weight would still remain at under 1500kg.

Best regards,

Jussi

[Romo]

I hope that the the weight off the E92 M3 equals that of the E46 M3.........that would be some awesome acomplishment.................

[JK42]

Yes it would. That would mean the awesome cornering capabilities would still be there, or probably even improved, with a fire-breathing M Power V8 for a engine. Like I compared some time ago, in best case scenario, it'll be almost like the race version of M3 GTR was back in 2001. (Well, not quite as powerful, but almost.)

Best regards,

Jussi

[enigma]

Originally Posted by JK42

Like I compared some time ago, in best case scenario, it'll be almost like the race version of M3 GTR was back in 2001. (Well, not quite as powerful, but almost.)

It will be about 1000lbs heavier than the race GTR. Thats a lot of extra weight. The car will in no way be comparable to the GTR for that reason.

[JK42]

Originally Posted by enigma

It will be about 1000lbs heavier than the race GTR. Thats a lot of extra weight. The car will in no way be comparable to the GTR for that reason.

It'll be "almost" comparable, as I said, due to the similiarities in the engine. Of course it'll be nothing close to the weight, or the fact that race cars don't need to worry about emissions controls or catalysators or other kill-joys etc. etc.

Best regards,

Jussi

[Last E92 M3]

Originally Posted by JK42

SMG will certainly be developed from the SMG III - during the SMG III program the gearbox department apparently didn't feel like they had adequate time finishing the product and would have liked to incorporate much more features that time didn't allow (kind of like back with the SMG II on the E46.) and less jerky drive modes, so that even the hardest-core person could accept the SMG and not think that he's faster than it with a manual (he won't be.) - with SMG you still have a straight touch to the road after all (as much as you do, with all the Valvetronic and DI technology of today.... but, no torque converters at least.)

well smg is definately faster than manual and i like how smg is getting better.
however, they have to come up w/ something like DSG, aka dual clutch system (i like to call it as a system )

how fast is the shifting of SMG? i know that DSG can shift in single digit milliseconds. (8?9? i think?)