[bigdaddycane]

A little background on my car:
I had previously install KW V1 coilovers on my 07 335 and really liked the setup. But the more I drove the car I realized that something was off.; nothing major, but the car was twitchy and I attributed it to the very small rear sway bar. The 335 comes with a 26.5 mm front sway bar and a 13mm rear. The oem rear sway bar can be mistaken for a brake line; it’s tiny! I’ve seen Honda Accords with bigger rear sway bars!

Anyway, I did some research and the aftermarket sway bars (Hotchkis and H&R) are really expensive so I started looking at the oem M3 sways. The M3 has a 26.5mm front sway bar and a 20mm rear sway bar. Those sizes are very close to the aftermarket sway bar kits. The bushings are also much stiffer than the stock 335 sway bar bushings due to their makeup which is rubber coated steel bearings. The front and rear sway bars, bushings and clamps run ~$310 before shipping from Faulkner BMW in Pa. Most aftermarket kits are near $400 or more. Part numbers can be found on realoem.com. I can post them here if anyone is interested as well.

Also, the E90 M3 Convertible runs a 23.5 rear bar, but I did not want to go this extreme as I wanted to keep the car balanced. I noted this for anyone who is looking for something more extreme. The cost is the same as the non-convertible rear sway bar.

Now to the install:
We tackled this at my buddy Jon's fully outfitted garage Saturday. The front bar is very straightforward and does not take much time (approx 45 mins). Why change the front when they are the same size you ask? Well, the stock 335 front sway bar has a taper in two spots and the M3 sway does not. The taper affects the bar’s affective rate. Also, the M3 bushings are rubber coated steel bearings, not just rubber bushings like the 335 bar uses.

The rear sway bar is a giant m*thaf*ker. Basically you have to lower the entire rear subframe and exhaust to make room to fish the bigger M3 sway bar into place. Probably took 2.5 hours to do but could be done faster now because of lessons learned. Basically, any suspension work in the rear of the 335 is a PITA.
Fitment for front and rear is perfect.

Driving impressions:
Wow! Much better, this is the way the car should have come from the factory. Huge improvement in the rear and the understeer is minimized. 7mm makes a noticeable difference. There is a bit more “road noise” but nothing that could be considered annoying.

Overall, I’m really happy with this upgrade even though the (rear) install was draining.

Here are some comparison pictures of the stock 335 rear sway bar and the stock M3 sway bar that replaced it.





Part numbers used:

Front Bar
31352283515
Front Bushings
31352283516
31352283517

Rear Bar
33552283655
Rear Bushings
33552283709
33552283710

[secretsquirrel]

thanks for the write up. I've been thinking of doing this upgrade. Your review made the mod a higher priority. I'm just not excited about doing the rear sway bar. I could tell it would be a b*tch when I installed my coilovers.

[theskunk]

I think its hilarious that you've seen accords with bigger.

I traded my 07 accord coupe with a 18.5mm rear in on tuesday of last week on a 335d

The rear upgrade on that was much like the front is on this -- i was quite disappointed to find that i'll have to drop the entire rear to get the thing in...

Thanks for the write up and I'll absolutely add this to the list!

[Blk07335i]

Nice. You should be careful with that thick of a rear sway bar as you have increased the tendency to snap oversteer. You should also probably think about a LSD with the M3 rear bar. Enjoy!

[bigdaddycane]

I think one of the biggest differences is the bushings. The factory 335 bushings are a much softer rubber with NO bearing in the middle. Just changing to upgraded bushings would be a nice upgrade.

I will report back with any positives and negatives as I have been on a business trip in Texas and have not had a chance to drive the car really hard.

[MicaCeli]

Sway bars take away grip...the larger the bar the less grip you get. So what you get with putting larger sway bars on your car is removing grip from each up to the point to where the car 'feels' balanced.

I could go on and on about sway (read torsion) bars and why they exist in our world but I don't have time right now

[bigdaddycane]

yeah ok...

of course there's always a trade off, but once you upgrade a suspension you need to make sure everything is in sync.

[bigdaddycane]

Here is the links to the site I used to get the part numbers. Write down the part numbers then go to Faulkner BMWs site.

Note: You don't need the nuts. Use your existing hardware.

Front Sway Bar
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...04&hg=31&fg=10

Rear Sway Bar
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...11&hg=33&fg=45

[Polini]

I want to install rear sway bar for my 335 E92 from M3.Can you give me part numbers which I must buy.
Sorry my English?I am from Russia)))

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by MicaCeli

Sway bars take away grip...the larger the bar the less grip you get. So what you get with putting larger sway bars on your car is removing grip from each up to the point to where the car 'feels' balanced.

I could go on and on about sway (read torsion) bars and why they exist in our world but I don't have time right now

I do.

Originally Posted by bigdaddycane

yeah ok...

of course there's always a trade off, but once you upgrade a suspension you need to make sure everything is in sync.

I've said this before and I'll say it one more time.

In the world of suspension tuning, swaybars offer the LEAST amount of gain for the money. In order of effectiveness:

Tires > Alignment > Springs > Dampers > Brakes > Swaybars

And the tricky part of the whole equation is, swaybars are the ONLY component on the list that take away grip. Swaybars in essence, lock the two sides of the suspension and prevent it from moving independently, thus reducing overall grip of the system. While this is a gross simplification of the theory of grip, it is also all but universal (I'll get to the "but" part later).

Tires, of course, offer the biggest improvement on grip and handling because it's the ONLY thing coming in contact with the road. Obviously grippier the tire, the more traction/grip you have, the better the car handles. Alignment, or proper alignment, allows the tires to stay in contact with the ground during cornering. Springs, or the energy stored in the springs, keeps the tire in contact with the ground as the weight of the vehicle moves from one side to another in a dynamic state. Dampers control the movement of the springs therefore controls the rate that springs put force onto the tires to keep it on the ground. Brakes, while technically not part of the system, allows you to transfer weight from one end to the other, thus increase the grip on the front end when you use it.

Swaybar, on the other hand, prevents the springs from transmitting that force to the tires to keep it on the ground, therefore thicker swaybars actually take away grip. That's why, if you look at a general "handling" chart, it is almost always recommended to "stiffen" up the OPPOSITE axle to cure understeer or oversteer. It balances the car out by removing grip on the end that has it so both sides lose grip at the same rate.

So the effect of adding bigger swaybars will result in a SLOWER lap time because you simply won't have the same amount of grip through the turns. Typically, racers and successful autocrossers will use swaybar upgrades as the LAST thing to fine-tune the balance of the car. In fact there are multiple successful national club racers and autocrossers who will run without bars either up front or in the rear to achieve a more balanced chassis.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT.

Swaybars are not without merit. Since BMW needs to build street cars that appeal to the masses, rather than race cars, they needed to provide a relatively soft suspension with soft springs and light dampers. The end result of trying to achieve moderate street comfort is significant body roll in corners. The best compromise, is to take away a moderately small amount of grip, and use swaybars to decrease the side to side motion known as "roll". This way the car will retain relative civility going straight, while giving up little grip for the sensation that it's "cornering on rails."

It's all a relative compromise. Since grippier tires with stiff sidewalls, or stiffer springs, or high rebound/compression dampers will affect ride comfort at all times, going straight or in a turn, for a street car it is not uncommon to NOT equip it with very stiff springs but use swaybars to compensate. So, for a street driven only car, it is actually not a bad idea to upgrade only the swaybars since you sacrifice none of the straight line comfort, while only giving up some moderate grip, which you will get some back by the swaybars acting as increased wheel rate through corners (the torsional stiffness of the swaybars ADD wheel rate to the outside wheel) plus it'll keep the body-roll to a minimum to create the added illusion that the car is "handling" well, as long as it's not being pushed to its traction limit (since cars with upgraded swaybars will have lower traction limit).

So, as long as you understand how swaybars work and its limitations, upgrading swaybars for a mostly street driven car actually has a lot of benefits and very little drawback. But from a standpoint of real performance applications, adding swaybars for "performance" is a bit of an oxymoron. At least, for performance, I'd add better tires, proper alignment, better springs/shocks, and maybe even better brakes before I move on to swaybars.

[cvc 22349a]

Swaybar, on the other hand, prevents the springs from transmitting that force to the tires to keep it on the ground, therefore thicker swaybars actually take away grip. That's why, if you look at a general "handling" chart, it is almost always recommended to "stiffen" up the OPPOSITE axle to cure understeer or oversteer. It balances the car out by removing grip on the end that has it so both sides lose grip at the same rate.

Hack,

Does this mean that to reduce understeer one would "stiffen" the front axle or rear axle?

I'm struggling with deciding between a 14mm rear arb and the M3 f/r arb set. The only reason I'm considering a change in arb's is the subframe is going to be dropped for the M3 bushing install anyway.

tia

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by cvc 22349a

Swaybar, on the other hand, prevents the springs from transmitting that force to the tires to keep it on the ground, therefore thicker swaybars actually take away grip. That's why, if you look at a general "handling" chart, it is almost always recommended to "stiffen" up the OPPOSITE axle to cure understeer or oversteer. It balances the car out by removing grip on the end that has it so both sides lose grip at the same rate.

Hack,

Does this mean that to reduce understeer one would "stiffen" the front axle or rear axle?

I'm struggling with deciding between a 14mm rear arb and the M3 f/r arb set. The only reason I'm considering a change in arb's is the subframe is going to be dropped for the M3 bushing install anyway.

tia

Don't know. Depending on when, where, and how the understeer is occurring, and if it really is understeer.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. It may sound like I know what I'm talking about. I may even ACT like I know what I'm talking about. But when it comes to suspension tuning? It is a freakin' VOODOO art that I haven't even come close to scratching the surface.

The god awful truth is, every single components I listed above, tires, alignment, springs, shocks, brake, and sways all work as a system with multiple variables that makes outcome UNPREDICTABLE. Remember in my earlier post I mentioned the "but" part of "all but universal?"

I remember, long long time ago, back long before I became the "guru" that I am, I had a guy show me that by stiffening up the front swaybars (I had adjustable sways) I could actually potentially eliminate the UNDERSTEER that I was experiencing through a specific turn. I was shocked. I mean, I was holding onto the bible that says "to cure understeer, stiffen the rear sway. To cure oversteer, stiffen the front sway (hence stiffen the opposite axle of the end that lose grip first)." I was baffled as to why that is so, until my friend (god rest his soul. He was taken away from us and the community way too early) showed me that with the amount of camber I had, actually stiffening the swaybar resulted in limiting the front suspension's movement enough that it prevented the OUTSIDE front from compressing past the roll center, therefore keeping my camber in a favorable state through that combination of turns.

At that time I was absolutely floored. He gave me the bible about tires > alignment > springs > shocks...etc. But even he said, none of this means anything. Your goal is to maximize the amount of grip to each end, then decrease the end that has more available maximum grip so both ends are even. How you go about doing it, is by testing. Your tire's grip may be static, but the alignment setting will determine how to maximize that grip. Then your springs will determine how long that grip is available to you in a corner. Then your dampers will extend that available grip. Blah blah blah. But each one of these settings will have an effect one way or another, and while you increase your grip level in one way, you may in effect be decreasing that grip in a different state. Again I was floored. In the end, what I learned from my friend was, the only way to know for sure, is try out different settings starting with the tire (tire pressure). Once you achieved maximum grip there for that specific tire, you move on to alignment. Then you measure temperature across tires to see if it's even and adjust accordingly. Then you use stiffer springs, and adjust the dampers to control those springs until you get ideal results based on your lap time, then you learn to use your brakes to effectively manage weight transfer to improve that lap time, then if you're suffering understeer or oversteer in a specific corner or series of corners despite your adjusting of your driving, you can use adjustable swaybars to dial in or out of understeer...But just be aware that the effect may not always be as desired, and that's where TESTING is going to help you.

So why am I telling you all this? It is irrelevant. Typically, oversteer or understeer state can be resolved LONG before you get to needing to adjust swaybars. And even *I* don't go beyond adjusting a few lbs of pressure here or there or add a little bit more camber up front, because true effect on understeer and oversteer are magnitudes larger there. And in reality, those that actually do understand how this stuff works, have spent decades working on racecars and wouldn't bother to spend that much time posting on an intarweb forum.

Anyway, to answer your question.

In general, the stiffer the swaybar, the less grip is available...Or the LIMIT of grip is lowered. Meaning, again, in general, if you're experiencing UNDERSTEER you need to stiffen the rear bar. If you're experiencing OVERSTEER you need to stiffen the front bar.

Unfortunately, that general rule doesn't always work outside of steady state understeer in a skidpad condition. When understeer occurs at corner entry SOMETIMES it may actually resolve the problem by stiffening up the front. While this is counter-intuitive, it goes back to the unfavorable camber curves of the MacPherson Strut up front. By locking the front suspension from moving independently, a thicker bar up front may actually improve front end grip if the car has ample camber up front already. BUT. In that same scenario, a TOO STIFF bar may actually lift the inside front tire therefore decreasing grip.

That is why, for a street car driven on the street, swaybars are great. It gives you the illusion of less body-roll without sacrificing ride comfort. For the track? I leave mine alone. Or at least get marginally larger bars that I can adjust to my heart's content.

But if I'm getting bars for street use only? It matters very little whether it increases or decreases understeer, really.

So if you're still not confused enough to still think clearly, what I'm saying is, if you're not going to the track, it doesn't matter.

[31 Hz]

Originally Posted by The HACK

And in reality, those that actually do understand how this stuff works, have spent decades working on racecars and wouldn't bother to spend that much time posting on an intarweb forum.

Very true.

Thanks, yet again, for taking the time.

[bigdaddycane]

Cut and paste works pretty well, huh?.....you've obviously used that novel before.

Swaybars are not without merit. Since BMW needs to build street cars that appeal to the masses, rather than race cars, they needed to provide a relatively soft suspension with soft springs and light dampers. The end result of trying to achieve moderate street comfort is significant body roll in corners. The best compromise, is to take away a moderately small amount of grip, and use swaybars to decrease the side to side motion known as "roll". This way the car will retain relative civility going straight, while giving up little grip for the sensation that it's "cornering on rails."

I agree with this, but in changing the shocks and struts onTHIS BMW the very weak link became the rear sway bar. The car felt better with the upgrades but exhibited too much roll and understeer. I really believe the rear sway bar on the E90 becomes very inadequate when the shocks and struts are upgraded on a E90.

The M3 sway bar may be a tad large for the E90 but the BMW Performance bar is not big enough IMO. A 17 or 18mm rear bar would be perfect. I think the Eibach *might* be an 18mm.

I'd add better tires, proper alignment, better springs/shocks, and maybe even better brakes before I move on to swaybars.

did all that, hence the sway bars was the last piece.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by bigdaddycane

Cut and paste works pretty well, huh?.....you've obviously used that novel before.

I agree with this, but in changing the shocks and struts onTHIS BMW the very weak link became the rear sway bar. The car felt better with the upgrades but exhibited too much roll and understeer. I really believe the rear sway bar on the E90 becomes very inadequate when the shocks and struts are upgraded on a E90.

The M3 sway bar may be a tad large for the E90 but the BMW Performance bar is not big enough IMO. A 17 or 18mm rear bar would be perfect. I think the Eibach *might* be an 18mm.

did all that, hence the sway bars was the last piece.

I've thought about responding to this thread a long, long time ago, but refrained from doing so because I knew my time would be absolutely wasted.

I was right then.

If you upgrade your springs and shocks you don't need to upgrade your swaybar. The effect on the car's actual ability to provide grip is decreased when you upgrade your swaybar. Upgrading swaybar is for when you don't want to lose street comfort, don't drive past the traction limit enough times to know where it's at, and want to reduce body roll to make it easier to control the vehicle at the lower half of the car's capability to corner.

By upgrading the suspension all around with springs and shocks, then "upgrading" the swaybar actually decreases your car's ability to go through corner at speed.

[mike-y]

Originally Posted by bigdaddycane

I agree with this, but in changing the shocks and struts onTHIS BMW the very weak link became the rear sway bar. The car felt better with the upgrades but exhibited too much roll and understeer. I really believe the rear sway bar on the E90 becomes very inadequate when the shocks and struts are upgraded on a E90.

Actually, if you had upgraded your suspension with the correct spring rates, you wouldn't need to touch the swaybars at all. It sounds like you need higher spring rates, and/or a different F/R spring rate ratio. But I see you have V1's, which have a progressive rate spring setup with more front bias, so that explains your situation.

Though 20mm isn't huge for a rear sway on a 3500 lbs car, so it sounds like it works pretty well in this situation.

[subieworx]

Tuning a suspension with just spring rates is a very crappy way to tune it. The suspension is a system that needs to be looked at as such. You don't want to overcompensate in one area just so you don't have to deal with another. I see so many people with many different cars who say all you need is coilovers which is simply put not the case.

[bigdaddycane]

I've thought about responding to this thread a long, long time ago, but refrained from doing so because I knew my time would be absolutely wasted.

I was right then.

It wasn't posted that long (long, long) ago Captain. And why did you? couldn't help yourself?

You're 3,000 miles away, yet you know exactly what is going on with MY car. Please...

with the KW V1s and other upgrades the car was OFF....plain and simple. There was still understeer and some odd body roll.

Can you tell me why an E90 M3 (which is similar to my car with an upgraded suspension) runs a 20mm rear sway bar? Why doesn't BMW just use the same old 13mm rear sway bar on ALL the 3 series?

The M3 sway bars and bushing have helped my car although there is a bit more Oversteer now, which I expected and would rather have than how it felt prior to the sway bar install.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by subieworx

Tuning a suspension with just spring rates is a very crappy way to tune it. The suspension is a system that needs to be looked at as such. You don't want to overcompensate in one area just so you don't have to deal with another. I see so many people with many different cars who say all you need is coilovers which is simply put not the case.

BINGO. I have stated multiple times. It is a system that has variables that are integrally tied into each other. For example, camber and toe will affect tire's available grip, but suspension ride height will change camber and camber will in turn change toe. In addition, TIRES actually affect wheel rate therefore to properly tune a suspension tire sidewall stiffness needs to be taken into account when adjusting compression and rebound rates. Just about every single parameter you change from the suspension will affect other areas of the suspension.

My last hint of the day. Typically experienced race car drivers will have some baseline to go by, but once they have chosen their desired spring rates, it is very time consuming to change rates since the front springs require a spring compressor and complete disassembly of the strut assembly. So typically, they will run with a higher than ideal rate and use other adjustable parameters to increase grip. So in that sense, you adjust tire pressure to an ideal pressure, then you adjust alignment to get the tire temperature even all across, then you play with various shock and strut settings to get the suspension to behave the way you think it ought to behave. I have seen very rarely ANY experienced club racers mess around with their swaybars that much, because, by the time you get to the swaybars, you should be almost all dialed in. If you have to mess with the swaybars to get your car to behave how you need it to behave on a track, you've done something wrong in the steps leading up to it.

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of experienced club racers that run with thicker swaybars. But most of them will tell you they use the aftermarket swaybars for for the ability to adjust and fine-tune some grip out of the opposite end that's slipping.

Last thing I will say, is suspension tuning, above all else, is a long series of COMPROMISES.

Originally Posted by bigdaddycane

It wasn't posted that long (long, long) ago Captain. And why did you? couldn't help yourself?

You're 3,000 miles away, yet you know exactly what is going on with MY car. Please...

with the KW V1s and other upgrades the car was OFF....plain and simple.

The sway bars and bushing have helped although there is a bit more Oversteer now, which I'd rather have than how it felt prior to the sway bar install.

Believe you me. I don't think I will feel the need to contribute in this forum in the future. I'll make sure to bite my tongue no matter how bad the information or how uninformed the post.

There's no such thing as a little bit more "oversteer." I don't think you understand the concept of oversteer or understeer. When those terms are used in the industry, it means that then end of the car (rear in the case of oversteer) has already lost grip. There's oversteer, and there's understeer, as the two states that a chassis will eventually be under once one or the other end looses grip. They are black and white terms. You are either understeering, or you are not. You are either oversteering, or you are not. You can't have a little bit of one or the other. What you WILL get, is a change in the characteristic of the car from a propensity to understeer when entering, in static cornering, or exiting a turn, to a propensity to oversteer when entering, in static cornering, or exiting a turn. Usually a sure thing that suggest to me that said poster does not know what he or she's talking about, is when understeer or oversteer is tossed about without a qualifying statement as to when, where, and how.

Now, that "propensity" as I explained, can have varying degree of severity. Front wheel drive cars with more than 60% of weight up front will have a higher propensity to understeer upon corner exit, because as you accelerate and transfer weight to the back of the car, all of the sudden the drive wheels gets "light" and lose grip. Rear wheel drive, on the other hand, while exhibiting a propensity to corner exit understeer is typically present, since the front wheels are not driven wheels, applied power can not overcome grip, therefore that tendency or propensity to understeer is less than comparable FWD cars (i.e the understeer behavior will appear at a higher corner exit speed). But both vehicles will UNDERSTEER. So the question is on a RWD on corner exit, is whether or not the power will break traction in the rear (oversteer) before the speed of corner exit will overwhelm the front tire (understeer)*. However, the behavior of a vehicle braking or slowing into a corner and upon turn-in is also different and can/will result in either understeer or oversteer when traction is lost but I won't bother most of you with that dissertation for now.

So in this case, you can see why stiffening up the rear bar to cure "understeer" is problematic. All you are doing, is introducing a lower limit of traction to the rear in order to balance out the lack of traction in the front. The PROPER way to cure understeer in this case (RWD), is to ADD GRIP to the front of the car. This can be done, assuming you're already at ideal tire pressure, by adding negative camber, increasing compression, or decreasing rebound. Or softening the front swaybar. ONLY when there are no more grip to be added to the front, should you consider removing rear grip to dial out understeer (this is assuming you already know how to engage a corner, the ENTIRE corner, from entry to exit, at the maximum average speed at exit).

And the reason why I comment, is the sad state of information being passed along on the forums. People will take what is said on any forum as gospel and continue to spew false information. And the real unfortunate part is, most of the time people who actually do know, don't bother with spending time posting the correct information. Heck, I knew I would be wasting my time, since most of the concepts regarding going fast and most of suspension tuning is voodoo magic that no amount of actual explaining is going to help any one who doesn't actually know how to do it.

And frankly I'm shooting myself in the foot by even opening my mouth (or is that fingers in this case) since MY industry depends on people like you buying stuff that we make without all the right reasons why you need to buy it. I'm pretty sure half the vendors on this forum right now is saying "shut the f**k up HACK, you're cramping our style."

Unfortunately learning when NOT to say something was never part of my repertoire.

NOW.

Had you said "the KW V1 coil overs did not allow me to add enough camber in the front, or for a street driven car I don't want to be swapping out front tires every 8,000 miles because the inside is all worn out but the outside is barely 5% worn, or I didn't want to add wider tires up front (another topic that I wanted to touch, but will require a 1,000 ft pole) or can't add wider tires up front, or the rebound adjustment range does not allow me to find a range that works to increase grip up front (I forget, is V1 rebound adjustable?), or I never had the opportunity to have the car corner balanced and properly aligned, so I added thicker rear swaybars to allow me to compromise for a more neutral chassis while decreasing body roll for the majority of my driving" I probably won't have commented on it, since most of it would actually be pretty accurate. But since you actually responded sarcastically to the ONE SINGLE post in the entire thread that brought up an absolutely correct and on target point, I thought I'd better spend some time in launching into one of my dissertations.

[bigdaddycane]

I really didn't think I had to qualify what exactly I was doing with my car. The car is set up for daily driving and I am not going to comprimise tire longevity when these Bridgestones don't last very long to begin with.

If the car was going to be on the track or autocross I would set it up very differently. This is a setup I'm comfortable with and if it was detrimental in anyway, I would look for another alternative.

Why not address mike-y's post? I believe that post actually bridged the gap in this discussion.

Also, I understand what over and understeer is and don't need a disertation from you.

So you troll the forums looking for sarchasm....boy, that (and these long winded post responses) must keep you busy. We all know you would have responded to this post REGARDLESS of what I responded with to Micaceli.

Also, I didn't buy anything from "your industry" as I stayed close to home with BMW because they make parts that work on this model and the prices are better than the aftermarket. I wanted parts that I knew would fit on this model and had been used by BMW on a very similar model (M3).

You obviously know what you're talking about but coming across condescending or like the grumpy old man that hates forums because everyone on them are idiots is NOT a good approach.

My original post was informational and never once did I say that this was a perfect setup. Using of the shelf BMW components as opposed to the aftermarket is always a good approach.

I think it's understood that (as you and I both stated) suspension tuning is

is a long series of COMPROMISES

[bluefly]

Hey guys no need to get defensive... I was actually going to write that the original post was useful and I also GREATLY appreciate Hack's detailed and knowledgeable posts... Nice to read some honest-to-god technical posting on suspension tuning on the forums. Peace.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by MicaCeli

Sway bars take away grip...the larger the bar the less grip you get. So what you get with putting larger sway bars on your car is removing grip from each up to the point to where the car 'feels' balanced.

I could go on and on about sway (read torsion) bars and why they exist in our world but I don't have time right now

Dinan Stage 3 used to have the rear bar (small upgrade) and they stopped selling it in the stage 3 because it apparently reduced grip without the LSD.

I am now doing all, the bar, subframe, and LSD. There is already too much trac problems with the 335 as is. I would like to hear your review after you do this and don't do a LSD on the traction issues - if any.