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[BlueElectrin]

So I went to a local tire shop to get some quotes for winter tires, and was giveen a rather doom-and-gloom speech about getting performance winter tires (instead of plain winter tires).

For example, I was looking at Blizzak WS70, but shop guy keep trying to convince me to get Blizzak LM60 instead. According to him, sport sedans should go with H+ rating tires (performance winter tires) for higher speed and stronger tire well to avoid body roll; plain winter tires usually has T or R rating (plain winter tires).

Where I'm current located (Calgary, Canada), we get pretty harsh winter with fair amount of snow and ice, but we also get periodic "chinooks" that may last as long as two weeks, where temperature goes as high as +10 degree Celsius. Road tends to stay pretty dry during chinook.

To be honest, I don't really think I need performance winter tires. I try to drive safe and slower during winter time anyway, and when push comes to shove I rather have maximum grip on ice/snow for safety, and is welling to sacrifice performance.

Wondering if forum members can chime in your 2c and let me know if there is a proper justification to go with performance winter tires; keep in mind there's a pretty big price difference.

[tomz17]

The salesman is WRONG and your intuition is spot on.

The LM60 are made from a more traditional compound with a winter tread pattern. This allows them to have a higher speed rating but worse performance on snow/ice. They are only really good for areas with milder winters. The WS70's are made from a dedicated snow/ice rubber compound. This results in a lower speed rating, but better winter performance! Unless you intend to exceed the tires speed rating, the WS70 is the superior winter tire.

I have a set of WS70's for my 335i and they are fantastic in the snow/ice. I usually have them on a few weeks before/after snowfall. They are perfectly acceptable on dry asphalt.

Originally Posted by BlueElectrin

So I went to a local tire shop to get some quotes for winter tires, and was giveen a rather doom-and-gloom speech about getting performance winter tires (instead of plain winter tires).

For example, I was looking at Blizzak WS70, but shop guy keep trying to convince me to get Blizzak LM60 instead. According to him, sport sedans should go with H+ rating tires (performance winter tires) for higher speed and stronger tire well to avoid body roll; plain winter tires usually has T or R rating (plain winter tires).

Where I'm current located (Calgary, Canada), we get pretty harsh winter with fair amount of snow and ice, but we also get periodic "chinooks" that may last as long as two weeks, where temperature goes as high as +10 degree Celsius. Road tends to stay pretty dry during chinook.

To be honest, I don't really think I need performance winter tires. I try to drive safe and slower during winter time anyway, and when push comes to shove I rather have maximum grip on ice/snow for safety, and is welling to sacrifice performance.

Wondering if forum members can chime in your 2c and let me know if there is a proper justification to go with performance winter tires; keep in mind there's a pretty big price difference.

[Coolieman1220]

I use Dunlop Wintersport 3D's which work great on the cold roads, i've had them at speeds over 130. quiet and ride well. they did good in snow too but for where you are, something mored dedicated may be better

[Kolyan2k]

you are in Canada....and you are willing to sacrifice performance..... so ws70s are perfect. but on the other hand you have xi on top of that. if you wanna be 100% safe, get ws70s

I am from Boston and I like fast driving summer or winter, I also have rwd and drive to mountains often... I choose lm60s for performance....after all I buy cars for performance, not for slow driving

[krhodes1]

The answer really depends on your local conditions. I'm on the coast of Maine, and I will be using performance winter tires (Yokohama w.Drive) on my E91. But we usually have BARE roads. We get a lot of snow and ice, and it is cold, but we have lots of snow plows and lots of salt too! So cold and dry are the conditions 90%+ of the time. But I also work at home when I am not flying somewhere, so if the roads are bad I don't normally have to drive. I really only even bother with snows on that car in case I get caught out on a road trip. I want to keep as much of the BMWs fine handling as possible, while still having OK performance in snow.

Now that said, I have a set of good old-fashion knarly studdable (though not studded) snow tires (Hanook iPike) on my "wintah beatah" Volvo 945. THAT car is sacreficial, and if I have to go somewhere when the roads are bad that is the one. The Volvo is not exactly a high-performance machine with its mighty 112hp, so I don't care if the handling limits on dry pavement are reduced. It does have a locking diff though, and is pretty much unstoppable in the snow.

[Coolieman1220]

what about Nokians? arn't they boss for winter tires?

[Ctm309]

Originally Posted by Coolieman1220

I use Dunlop Wintersport 3D's which work great on the cold roads, i've had them at speeds over 130. quiet and ride well. they did good in snow too but for where you are, something mored dedicated may be better

Yes, I had them too. Great tires.

[cb4]

In your shoes I would go with the LM. You have an xi so getting stuck will likely not be an issue. The LM will feel more stable on the highway at speed and thus safer. I went with the pilot alpin for my xi in Boston and would do it again.

[BlueElectrin]

Thanks for all the comments.

I'll probably go for plain winter tires for maximum grip/traction.

I think The "doom-and-gloom" speech from the sales person was over the top. Unless I'm driving to the limit (which I don't during winter anyway, not with black-ice everywhere!) I don't think I'll notice that much of a difference with plain winter tires.

[Peertwelve]

Originally Posted by cb4

In your shoes I would go with the LM. You have an xi so getting stuck will likely not be an issue. The LM will feel more stable on the highway at speed and thus safer. I went with the pilot alpin for my xi in Boston and would do it again.

^^good advice


I'm no tire expert but i was told the same thing when i bought my LMs - the WS has a much lower speed rating and could be sketchy in the dry on highways. did you check out the user reviews on tire rack.com?

[BlueElectrin]

It's not getting stuck I'm worried about. I got confidence in the xDrive, even with just all-seasons.

The number one concern about winter driving (especially in Canada) is always about breaking.

Breaking on hard-packed snow (slippery), and breaking on black-ice (even more slippery).

I don't travel on high-way often, and when I do, it's under 140 kph during wintertime. Most plain winter tires have T rating, which is rated for 190 kph, which I'll never get to anyway.

The only thing that really got me thinking was that the sales person mentioned that the plain winters have relatively weak tire wells, and are "mushy" and create lots of body roll while cornering. I do suspect that he's blowing it out of proportion, plus I won't be doing any extreme cornering during winter anyway.

[ceb]

Originally Posted by BlueElectrin

It's not getting stuck I'm worried about. I got confidence in the xDrive, even with just all-seasons.

The number one concern about winter driving (especially in Canada) is always about breaking.

Breaking on hard-packed snow (slippery), and breaking on black-ice (even more slippery).

I don't travel on high-way often, and when I do, it's under 140 kph during wintertime. Most plain winter tires have T rating, which is rated for 190 kph, which I'll never get to anyway.

The only thing that really got me thinking was that the sales person mentioned that the plain winters have relatively weak tire wells, and are "mushy" and create lots of body roll while cornering. I do suspect that he's blowing it out of proportion, plus I won't be doing any extreme cornering during winter anyway.

What the dealer failed to mention is that they have an overstock on the "perf" tires or have a higher profit margin on them.

Have you checked Tirerack? They ship to Canada.

[Kolyan2k]

speed rating is not how fast u can go on tires.... its how stable they are at all speeds. lower speed rating means softer sidewalls and softer compound. mushy = better in snow

[DnA Diesel]

How long do you want the tires to last? Either tire would do well around Calgary, right up to into the foot hills, anything further into the mountains and the WS would likely be the way to go. Keep in mind, the WS will wear faster than the LMs so you'll probably get a season or two less out of them. Once the softer grip compound on a WS is worn off, you're left with a harder base compound like the LM.

Check out Tirerack's comparison between WS, LM, Conti Extreme and Dunlop Graspic for more detail on the tires.

I run a fair bit of the 401 between Toronto and Montreal and also up the Ottawa Valley to North Bay and back, and there's about a 2:1 ratio of dry clear pavement to wet, snowy coverage. I went with a performance winter tire (LM-like) and happy with the choice. If I lived up in Northern Ontario year round, I'd probably go with a WS-like tire.

Either way, I think you'll be okay, especially with an xi.

Regards
D.

[tomz17]

Originally Posted by Peertwelve

^^good advice


I'm no tire expert but i was told the same thing when i bought my LMs - the WS has a much lower speed rating and could be sketchy in the dry on highways. did you check out the user reviews on tire rack.com?

The WS70's have T rating (118mph). How often do you exceed 118mph during the winter for extended periods of time?

I've taken the WS70's up to approx 100mph without any fuss whatsoever. They feel fine on my 335. They obviously aren't max performance summer tires, but all of the "mush", body roll, dry highway, etc. worries are absurd.

- The WS70 will outperform the LM60 in snow/ice/wet (especially ice).

- You are unlikely to notice much of a difference between the WS70 and LM60 on dry asphalt in winter conditions. How many of you truly push your winter tires? I've personally never had the WS70's break loose on me on dry pavement. Besides, if you live somewhere truly snowy, you probably drive / corner much more cautiously during the winter anyway (looking for melt / black ice, etc.).

[Kid Eh]

How long do you guys find your winter tires lasting? I've used my Dunlop 3D's for 5 full winters and am debating on getting new ones. They still have about 8/32 tread life left. I heard even though the tread my seem fine the rubber deteriorates over time. Opinions?

To the OP I prefer performance tires but then again Toronto doesn't see as much snow as Calgary.

[Coolieman1220]

Originally Posted by Kid Eh

How long do you guys find your winter tires lasting? I've used my Dunlop 3D's for 5 full winters and am debating on getting new ones. They still have about 8/32 tread life left. I heard even though the tread my seem fine the rubber deteriorates over time. Opinions?

To the OP I prefer performance tires but then again Toronto doesn't see as much snow as Calgary.

This is a good question, i often wonder the same thing, it seeems as if they dont wear. lol. i have the same tires

[Tag]

Had Dunlop's and now have Bridgestone's. The Dunlop's were all around a better winter performance tire IMO. Bridgestone's tend to get squirrely at expressway speeds.

[Yvette]

3rd set WS60 tires owner here, i do not look back.

[EVTee]

I was in the same dilemma when I had to get winter tires for my car last year. It was between the LM60 or the WS70. I ended up choosing the WS70 since I don't have xDrive and live in an area where there are a lot of steep inclines. There wasn't a lot of snow last year, but it performed great when we did get our share and it never got or slipped. I even purposely try to slalom around empty hilly streets at night and the grip was unbelievable.

The LM60 would've been good enough w/ the xDrive since you'll have lots of help from the AWD. WS70 do feel a little soft when cornering, but I reprogram my brain to drive less aggressively in winter.

I purchased my set from Tirerack and shipped it to Bellingham.

[tomz17]

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

Have to disagree here... I was using them last winter with no problems, and I live in the snow-belt as well. Car handled like a champ with the LM-60's.

Just because you found the LM-60 sufficient for your application does not mean that the WS-70 isn't a better winter tire. (see the tirerack reviews comparing the LM60 to the older WS60). The primary difference between both sets of tires will be on ice and packed snow.

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

The LM60 would've been good enough w/ the xDrive since you'll have lots of help from the AWD.

AWD only helps you with positive acceleration. It does nothing for braking or lateral acceleration (cornering).

This is a must-watch video :

The LM60 would actually perform closer to the all-season in this video's ice test since it just uses high-silica rubber instead of the WS70's Multi-Cell compound.


You really are just trading off 12mph of top speed (118mph vs 130mph) for ice performance. Is it worth it?

[DnA Diesel]

Originally Posted by tomz17

...The LM60 would actually perform closer to the all-season in this video's ice test since it just uses high-silica rubber instead of the WS70's Multi-Cell compound.

That's a stretch...the LM60 and Pirelli 210 Sottozero top the Performance Winter tire category for Ice Performance, ahead of Mich Pilot Alpins, Dunlop 3D and Goodyear Ultragrip and others...


Regards
D.