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      05-27-2012, 09:10 PM   #1
rick_flair_321
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sport line - staggered or square setup

just curious what your thoughts are on the standard vs staggered. i prefer the looks of the 18" rims but don't like how it's skinny from the rear. the 19" (staggered) fill the void, but i prefer the look of the 18"s. what do you folks think?
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      05-27-2012, 09:58 PM   #2
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18" all around provides better performance.

Buy the staggered only if you like the looks.
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      05-27-2012, 10:30 PM   #3
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I like the 18's. Wish they were staggered though. Thes 19's are nice but i find the design to flat and not aggressive.
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      05-28-2012, 02:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
18" all around provides better performance.

Buy the staggered only if you like the looks.
How come?
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      05-28-2012, 03:17 AM   #5
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I believe having 255's at the back aids traction (but worse in snow) and also improves low speed comfort as they will run over small road imperfections whereas the 225 is more likely to go into the hole.
It's the simple logic of more rubber = more grip and with being more than happy with the staggered setup on my 330d (which leaves me in an hour or so ), I made sure I had it again on my 328i.
Cars with skinny tyres on the motorway aren't much fun (not that the 225's are skinny) so using that train of thought, I want some fat 18" out back. Which here in the UK, I can have!
I believe the 19" will compromise comfort too much.
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      05-28-2012, 04:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeRandomer123 View Post
It's the simple logic of more rubber = more grip and with being more than happy with the staggered setup on my 330d (which leaves me in an hour or so ), I made sure I had it again on my 328i.
That will open a can of worms..., as wider doesn't automatically mean more grip. Footprint changes shape (not size) and there is more lateral grip. There is much more to grip than tyre width.

BTW, I run two wheel sets, staggered for the summer and square for the winter. The car is best balanced on the winter 'square' set, as the handling is neutral, not the understeer we get with a staggered setup. Got to keep these sporty drivers with 'performace' wheels in-line somehow.

So 'square' for the sharpest handling car.

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      05-28-2012, 05:02 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
18" all around provides better performance.

Buy the staggered only if you like the looks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micleg View Post
How come?
More compromises with the bigger rim set.

Take the E46 M3 for example, the 18" standard set work better than the 19" option. Proven by many users in real world driving, and on the track.

One of our UK motor mag' editors was running the 1M Coupe and fitted smaller wheels for the winter, so surprised him he started a blog on how the car was transformed, for the better, on the smaller wheel set.

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      05-28-2012, 05:27 AM   #8
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328i with M Sport 18" staggered for me.
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      05-28-2012, 07:24 AM   #9
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Well explained as always, Mr. HP.
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      05-28-2012, 07:45 AM   #10
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HighlandPete,

In winter, yes, I usually have a smaller dimension (width) for winter here in Sweden but I take it that when we speak 18 or 19 wheels it is for summer use. But another set of winter tyres could be on 17 inch wheels, unless the brakes are too big (only an M performance brake problem?).
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      05-31-2012, 10:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeRandomer123 View Post
I believe having 255's at the back aids traction (but worse in snow) and also improves low speed comfort as they will run over small road imperfections whereas the 225 is more likely to go into the hole.
It's the simple logic of more rubber = more grip and with being more than happy with the staggered setup on my 330d (which leaves me in an hour or so ), I made sure I had it again on my 328i.
Cars with skinny tyres on the motorway aren't much fun (not that the 225's are skinny) so using that train of thought, I want some fat 18" out back. Which here in the UK, I can have!
I believe the 19" will compromise comfort too much.
Any gain in comfort from the wider tires would be offset by the larger, heavier wheels and tires. I'd be willing to bet that it would end up being less comfortable, and more grip at the rear is not always a good thing especially when you aren't gaining any at the front.

There's a reason only the 19s come in a staggered setup, all the other tire options are designed for balanced handling but they must have realized that anyone who buys 19" rims on a sedan probably prefers the look of big, fat rear tires and is willing to make ride/handling compromises.

I don't mean to criticize people who buy big, wide wheels for the looks. They do look awesome, but if you think a 30mm stagger is improving the handling you're kidding yourself.
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      06-01-2012, 07:00 AM   #12
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I have to agree with that. If anything the 19" package would improve handling not because of the staggering but because of the tires vs all season or worse run flats on the stock 18" rims.
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      06-01-2012, 08:18 AM   #13
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On a 335i those 255s provide better traction thus better accelleration out of a bend. But it depends also on the brand/type of tyres used. Many F30 testcars at the Nordschleife(months ago) were fitted with the 19"401s. Why? You tell me.

A few lateral G tests also show the 19"setup has higher G than the 18"setup.

Also strange indeed.

The brand/type of tyres are the fact of the matter so to speak.
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      06-05-2012, 09:14 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
Any gain in comfort from the wider tires would be offset by the larger, heavier wheels and tires. I'd be willing to bet that it would end up being less comfortable, and more grip at the rear is not always a good thing especially when you aren't gaining any at the front.

There's a reason only the 19s come in a staggered setup, all the other tire options are designed for balanced handling but they must have realized that anyone who buys 19" rims on a sedan probably prefers the look of big, fat rear tires and is willing to make ride/handling compromises.

I don't mean to criticize people who buy big, wide wheels for the looks. They do look awesome, but if you think a 30mm stagger is improving the handling you're kidding yourself.
I know what you mean.
And yes, I do prefer the aesthetics of having 255's at the back!
But since I'm not going to be taking the car to the track or pushing it to the final word in handling, that doesn't bother me too much.
Spending most of its time on a motorway, I believe it will be more stable. Cars with skinny tyres like 175's-205's feel less stable on the motorway than cars with fat tyres on. They feel like they are moving about more!
Hmm! It's a good debate!
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      06-05-2012, 09:54 AM   #15
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@somerandomer123:

This webpage below describes a testdrive @ Laguna Seca with a 335i 6MT with a staggered setup (the ones driven by Joey Hand & Bill Auberlen). Nice writeup. They mention the benefits of the staggered 19"" wheels versus the normal 18"wheels....just read it:
ATM this link won't open @ my laptop..dunno what's going on:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/02/05/bm...mw-335i-sport/
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      06-06-2012, 08:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeRandomer123 View Post
I know what you mean.
And yes, I do prefer the aesthetics of having 255's at the back!
But since I'm not going to be taking the car to the track or pushing it to the final word in handling, that doesn't bother me too much.
Spending most of its time on a motorway, I believe it will be more stable. Cars with skinny tyres like 175's-205's feel less stable on the motorway than cars with fat tyres on. They feel like they are moving about more!
Hmm! It's a good debate!
I actually find the opposite to be true in my experience, the cars I've had with wider tires seem to tramline more and follow the grooves in the road. The problem is, every car I've had with wide tires has also had low profile, sporty tires and the two cars I had with skinnier 205s all around also had taller sidewalls so I don't know how much that affects the stability.
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      06-07-2012, 02:50 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
I actually find the opposite to be true in my experience, the cars I've had with wider tires seem to tramline more and follow the grooves in the road. The problem is, every car I've had with wide tires has also had low profile, sporty tires and the two cars I had with skinnier 205s all around also had taller sidewalls so I don't know how much that affects the stability.
Agreed; Tramlining is more typical in wider tires. Wider tires tend to follow the grooves in the road more.

Comfort difference between a comparable compound narrow tire and wide tire would likely be negligible. The large difference will be in tire thickness, as determined by wheel diameter.

Thus, a 265/45/17 will ride more comfortably than a 225/40/19 while any difference between a 265/35/19 & 225/40/19 would be negligible.
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      06-11-2012, 10:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltmode43 View Post
Agreed; Tramlining is more typical in wider tires. Wider tires tend to follow the grooves in the road more.

Comfort difference between a comparable compound narrow tire and wide tire would likely be negligible. The large difference will be in tire thickness, as determined by wheel diameter.

Thus, a 265/45/17 will ride more comfortably than a 225/40/19 while any difference between a 265/35/19 & 225/40/19 would be negligible.
Interesting.
Why then, do more powerful performance cars such as the Mercedes SLS AMG have 305's out back and something like 295's up front? The wider rear tyre allows more traction to transfer the power to road and along with the wide front tyre, gives more lateral grip too?
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      06-11-2012, 03:11 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeRandomer123 View Post
Interesting.
Why then, do more powerful performance cars such as the Mercedes SLS AMG have 305's out back and something like 295's up front? The wider rear tyre allows more traction to transfer the power to road and along with the wide front tyre, gives more lateral grip too?
Yes, a car with a significant power bias will call for more grip to put down power. My comment was a little off topic and more focused on the 'comfort' aspect, as well as tramlining comment. Tramlining refers to tires following the grooves in the road, which differs a bit from overall stability. Really, alignment plays a greater roll than anything else though all things equal, wider tires will tramline more.

When it comes down to it, a real performance car can be tuned to perform better via modification, alignment, and driving style. Cars with varying power levels and weight biases can definitely benefit from different setups, it's not as black and white as many make it out to be. Internet bench-racers will make big claims but in real world use there are far more factors than taken into consideration in threads like this (alignment settings, tire pressure, driving style, driving application [city, highway, canyons, autocross, track, etc.], tire compound, etc).

So in the end, take everything you read online with a grain of salt
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      06-12-2012, 09:13 PM   #20
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i went with 19's staggered set up

the f30 has extremely conservative offsets so the staggered is not as aggressive as the E9X

if you are comparing to the stock run flats, feels a ton better
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      06-14-2012, 05:36 PM   #21
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I'm planning on changing it up and running a custom wheel with agressive offsets in a square configuration. Thinking 19x9 with 255/35
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      06-14-2012, 09:30 PM   #22
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Tis true the whole wider=more grip debate is truly one for the ages.
From my readings on the matter, I'm concluding that the debate rages mostly due to engineers bringing in their mathematics, which are based more on absolutes than variables.

The engineers may be right on paper and can use their static numbers to "prove" their correctness. But, we live in a world of variables and real world road applications.
I can not say, as an absolute, that wider tires will always give more grip or not. What I would accept is real world, real road testing that demonstrates a handling and/or acceleration difference when wider tires are used.
This too has to be careful, because we not only need to compare square vs staggered width, we have to also consider the tires materials and design. If the square setup is using all season tire tread design and material compound, and the wider staggered set is using summer performance tread and compounds, then we're not really comparing the effect of wider tire width so much a we are now comparing all season tires to summer performance tires.

A true test will use same tread design, construction, and materials, and the only difference being the tire width.

I recall a recent comparison between an S4 with summer performance tires against an F30 335i with square all seasons. To me, right away the test was stacked in the S4's favor, strictly from a tire type difference, a major one at that.
That test has some relevant information to the differences between the cars, but for me it more demonstrates the difference tires can make.

Now that the Msport is coming, it will give an opportunity to test whether a staggered setup improves handling and/or acceleration vs a square setup.
A run between a 335i sport line with 18" square summer performance RFT's, against a 335i Msport with 18" staggered summer performance RFT's.
From what I've seen there are a few different tire brands that could end up on these cars, and that could make a bit of difference as well.
It would cool if reviewers/testers would take these cars to the track with same tire brand and type, with the only difference being tire width and side wall ratio.

My bet is that the wider setup will yield better acceleration and overall faster lap time. It's interesting that even with all the engineering talk, there never seems to be a definitive answer. The only consistent "answer" we get is, "wider doesn't necessarily mean better or more grip". There doesn't appear a conscensus that wider tires do NOT give better traction, just that it might.

So, the answer is best derived from real world testing.
As with most things there needs to be balance between suspension tuning and tires. I'll throw my hat in with BMW engineers designing and tuning the F30 sport suspension to do it's best with wider tires.
That could be in a staggered setup or square.
For me, I would have liked something like a 235 or 245 square setup.
I've got a 335i Msport on order which will have 18" staggered, but I'm exploring the possibility of doing 235 or 245 square setup, if the 8" front wheels allow that size.
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