[BzzzBom]

The major tuners such as Hartge, Alpina and Dinan have chosen (1) ECU reflash over piggyback and (2) to keep the HP / TQ gains moderate. Maybe this is a clue for all of us. IMO, I would be very careful before going for extreme HP / TQ gains with our cars until we have more info. When your piggyback modded car is throwing codes and/or going into limp mode isn't that a warning?

[zenmaster]

I look at limp mode as a warning. However, the potential danger obviously depends on the particular cause of the limp mode. Since limp mode can happen w/out codes, makes you wonder what actually happened.

[Black Chili]

Originally Posted by BzzzBom

The major tuners such as Hartge, Alpina and Dinan have chosen (1) ECU reflash over piggyback and (2) to keep the HP / TQ gains moderate. Maybe this is a clue for all of us. IMO, I would be very careful before going for extreme HP / TQ gains with our cars until we have more info. When your piggyback modded car is throwing codes and/or going into limp mode isn't that a warning?

This offers no validation that the physical restraints of the powertrain are "moderate". I would expect an ECU reflash to be much easier (and cheaper for the manufacture in the long run) than a piggy back; also depending on the parameters reset, maybe or maybe not give more control than a piggy back option.

Moderate power levels could just as easily be due to limitations of the tiny turbos and fuel system; they could also just as easily be related to marketing agreements with BMW- we'll give you access to the code if you don't threaten our new M3 lineup.

IMHO, BMW's protection stratagy is overly conservative. Throwing a code or limp mode means the computer saw something it didn't like or some random parameter was out of range- e.g. when you remove the cats... it doesn't mean the sky is falling.

[BzzzBom]

Originally Posted by JephryB

This offers no validation that the physical restraints of the powertrain are "moderate". I would expect an ECU reflash to be much easier (and cheaper for the manufacture in the long run) than a piggy back; also depending on the parameters reset, maybe or maybe not give more control than a piggy back option.

Moderate power levels could just as easily be due to limitations of the tiny turbos and fuel system; they could also just as easily be related to marketing agreements with BMW- we'll give you access to the code if you don't threaten our new M3 lineup.

IMHO, BMW's protection stratagy is overly conservative. Throwing a code or limp mode means the computer saw something it didn't like or some random parameter was out of range- e.g. when you remove the cats... it doesn't mean the sky is falling.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the sky is falling.

[e.n335]

Hi,

There are ECU flashes on the German market providing 520 nm @ the crank and they are warrantied from a tuning insurance company. For me this indicates that this is a safe number for MT and AT transmissions. The Alpina provides 500 nm @ crank as well.

I personally will try to set up the piggyback that it will provide 380 hp / 520 nm on the stock car. Numbers are crank. Some more power will be delivered by an upgraded FMIC, catted DP's and better mufflers. This should give me a very reliable tune. I don't race so I'll be very satisfied when all works as planned.

Cheers
Eugen

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by e.n335

Hi,

There are ECU flashes on the German market providing 520 nm @ the crank and they are warrantied from a tuning insurance company. For me this indicates that this is a safe number for MT and AT transmissions. The Alpina provides 500 nm @ crank as well.

Cheers
Eugen

If my conversion is right that's only 368-383 lb. of tq and at least 50 lbs. less at the crank than what the Procede is producing. That does beg the question if they think there are long-term issues with going higher than that range.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Carnage

If my conversion is right that's only 368-383 lb. of tq and at least 50 lbs. less at the crank than what the Procede is producing. That does beg the question if they think there are long-term issues with going higher than that range.

PROcede V2 will let you design your own torque / power curve, so it's up to everybody to set up the perferred tune.

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by e.n335

PROcede V2 will let you design your own torque / power curve, so it's up to everybody to set up the perferred tune.

that's great but doesn't answer the question as to if they may think there are issues with exceeding that range.

[e.n335]

I know but I think nobody has a correct answer until we see defects on cars. The only choice you have is if you like to be the first one with a defect. I don't say that something on the market is not reliabe. Using the products currently available with a supporting map you can make a lot of power with the 335i today ...

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Carnage

that's great but doesn't answer the question as to if they may think there are issues with exceeding that range.

This is a hugely important question that we all want answered.

However, no one (but largest shops) knows because it is too expensive to stress test or to examine drivetrain for indications of wear/stress.

This will not stop people from continually asking the question. And others from providing speculative answers (many of which are purely emotion-based) which basically only serve to add to the confusion. FWIW, if history is any indication, I would assume that any tune from Dinan or Alpina is safe and reliable for over 200K miles (on a properly maintained car).

Shiv's car is only just approaching 25K miles. At that rate, it'll be about 3 more years until we see 100K from a well-tested car.

[revah2]

Originally Posted by BzzzBom

The major tuners such as Hartge, Alpina and Dinan have chosen (1) ECU reflash over piggyback and (2) to keep the HP / TQ gains moderate. Maybe this is a clue for all of us. IMO, I would be very careful before going for extreme HP / TQ gains with our cars until we have more info. When your piggyback modded car is throwing codes and/or going into limp mode isn't that a warning?

I haven't heard of a case yet from an Active Autowerk Xede throwing codes and/or going into limp mode.
Seems as if they really did find the perfect blend of reliability and safe power gains
AA Xede gives around 385-395 crank.

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by e.n335

I know but I think nobody has a correct answer until we see defects on cars. The only choice you have is if you like to be the first one with a defect. I don't say that something on the market is not reliabe. Using the products currently available with a supporting map you can make a lot of power with the 335i today ...

+1 Time will tell...

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by e.n335

I know but I think nobody has a correct answer until we see defects on cars. The only choice you have is if you like to be the first one with a defect. I don't say that something on the market is not reliabe. Using the products currently available with a supporting map you can make a lot of power with the 335i today ...

Very true but even though we can't look into the future, in the present time we can look to those that have an established relationship with BMW and see what they choose to do given the opportunity.

You by your own admission feel that if Alpina and other established tuners offering warranties have picked a certain range to increase power, then that range "indicates that this is a safe number for MT and AT transmissions".

To me, given their knowledge of BMW's, when they have chosen to tune increases to that level they are speaking loud and clear about their feelings on what the car is able to handle from a long-term perspective.

But again, time will tell.

[BzzzBom]

Originally Posted by Carnage

Very true but even though we can't look into the future, in the present time we can look to those that have an established relationship with BMW and see what they choose to do given the opportunity.

You by your own admission feel that if Alpina and other established tuners offering warranties have picked a certain range to increase power, then that range "indicates that this is a safe number for MT and AT transmissions".

To me, given their knowledge of BMW's, when they have chosen to tune increases to that level they are speaking loud and clear about their feelings on what the car is able to handle from a long-term perspective.

But again, time will tell.

+3 Alpina, Hartge, and Dinan

[e.n335]

+3

I don't know Dinan, Alpina and Hartge are very serious companies. Just don't expect they won't follow BMW strategies. When the 335i does not have to be faster than the new M3, it won't.

Alpina and Hartge perform extensive stress- and quality testing. Your car will never see that kind of long-term load & stress.

However, these companies and some others indicate, in my way of thinking, very reliable performance tunes. I would say their numbers +5-10% additional load & stress would still be bullet-proof reliable, unless you race every day or have a dirty implementation. Proper maintenance and frequent oil-changes should be granted.

My 2 cents.

Cheers
Eugen

[stefano7171]

Originally Posted by Carnage

Very true but even though we can't look into the future, in the present time we can look to those that have an established relationship with BMW and see what they choose to do given the opportunity.

You by your own admission feel that if Alpina and other established tuners offering warranties have picked a certain range to increase power, then that range "indicates that this is a safe number for MT and AT transmissions".

To me, given their knowledge of BMW's, when they have chosen to tune increases to that level they are speaking loud and clear about their feelings on what the car is able to handle from a long-term perspective.

But again, time will tell.

With regard to the 6MT, I am sure it can handle more than 520 nm, because the same gearbox is mounted on the M5/M6, the v10 output is 520nm stock and it is impossible that they used a unit that cannot handle 15-20% more torque.
With regard to the Steptronic, you may all be right. A BMW tuning expert yesterday told me that the steptronic is the "weak" part of the chain, i.e. the first thing that brakes when the car is tuned. He was, however, not referring to the 335ì.

[Dontbethatguy]

You can't judge how much power our cars will take based on what a few of the "big" companies are doing. You have to remember that any company that's providing a warranty is going to leave the setup conservative. It doesn't mean that anything past what they're providing for power is too dangerous. It just means that they don't want to risk the possibility of repairing vehicles for a few more HP and TQ. They're keeping the cars conservative because they can't control what the car owner is or is not going to do with the car. You have to plan for the worst for some people.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by TrevorD

You can't judge how much power our cars will take based on what a few of the "big" companies are doing. You have to remember that any company that's providing a warranty is going to leave the setup conservative. It doesn't mean that anything past what they're providing for power is too dangerous.

There is no meaning. However. Alpina, for one, has tested many N54 engines and these test engines are destroyed. They know how the engine responds to stress, while we do not. So one would have to be foolish to discount what their engineers believe is safe.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

There is no meaning. However. Alpina, for one, has tested many N54 engines and these test engines are destroyed. They know how the engine responds to stress, while we do not. So one would have to be foolish to discount what their engineers believe is safe.

I fully argree. Just don't forget the strategic component. No Alpina car ever has been faster than the comparable M. But they have been as fast . That's why I believe a tune 5-10% above Alpina will be probably very reliable as well. IMO the weak point of the 335i is the AT, the great and quick it is ...

[E90Boy]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Alpina, for one, has tested many N54 engines and these test engines are destroyed. They know how the engine responds to stress, while we do not. So one would have to be foolish to discount what their engineers believe is safe.

Can you direct me to a link stating they've stress tested the engines to the point of destruction? I don't want to be an ass, I just want to get some more info, thanks.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by E90Boy

Can you direct me to a link stating they've stress tested the engines to the point of destruction?

I didn't read it on a link. Historically, such info is not provided publicly. I got it by word of mouth from a local BMW tuner. Apparently, the N54 is not exactly a 2JZ-GTE.

[musc]

Alpina has never been about radical all out power. Their Z8 conversion was slower than stock. So I wouldn't look at their 335i and think that they are at the max safe level. Having said that, even Alpina pushes 16psi out the stock turbos. The biggest physical change is lower cr pistons.