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      07-08-2013, 01:23 PM   #1
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328 vs 320 N20 pistons

Note sure if these has been posted already, but Terry from BMS just posted these over at n54tech.

Quote:
Hey guys,

For those interested we were able to obtain some photos of the 320 and 328 pistons. The 320 pistons are definitely a little higher CR but look just as beefy to me.


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      07-08-2013, 02:52 PM   #2
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According to the BMWUSA.com website, compression is listed for 10:1 on the 320i. Is that incorrect?
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      07-09-2013, 01:01 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyP View Post
According to the BMWUSA.com website, compression is listed for 10:1 on the 320i. Is that incorrect?
I think so.(?) There ha been some discussions whether the n20 320i's pistons were 10:1 or 11:1. I guess that discussion is now over with that picture from BMS.
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      07-10-2013, 07:43 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F30 Kupal View Post
I think so.(?) There ha been some discussions whether the n20 320i's pistons were 10:1 or 11:1. I guess that discussion is now over with that picture from BMS.
Isn't higher ratio provide higher potential for upgrading?
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      07-12-2013, 11:12 PM   #5
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Any more news on tuning the 320i?
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      07-13-2013, 12:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeYYC
Any more news on tuning the 320i?
Not really... I am running +4 psi of boost safely with the bms. The 320i is 11:1. Higher compression engines are harder to tune. Thats one of the main reasons why our numbers will never match a 328i. Nor will the gas mileages.
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      04-01-2022, 02:27 PM   #7
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n20 328 piston in a 320, pressure problem help

Hi, i have a f30 320 with 328 piston´s, with bootmod3 stage 1, intercool update, intake and downpipe, and after of change the pistons have the error code 121201 pressure sensor, pressure to high. can someone help me
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      04-03-2022, 10:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlejandroRuiz View Post
Hi, i have a f30 320 with 328 piston´s, with bootmod3 stage 1, intercool update, intake and downpipe, and after of change the pistons have the error code 121201 pressure sensor, pressure to high. can someone help me
Check the pressure sensor and pressure relief valve
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      04-03-2022, 10:47 AM   #9
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Some of the information I learned about the early 320 used 328 engines
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      04-03-2022, 05:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlejandroRuiz View Post
Hi, i have a f30 320 with 328 piston´s, with bootmod3 stage 1, intercool update, intake and downpipe, and after of change the pistons have the error code 121201 pressure sensor, pressure to high. can someone help me
You changed your pistons to the 328?
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      06-13-2022, 08:46 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlejandroRuiz View Post
Hi, i have a f30 320 with 328 piston´s, with bootmod3 stage 1, intercool update, intake and downpipe, and after of change the pistons have the error code 121201 pressure sensor, pressure to high. can someone help me
Hey im planning something similar on my 320i.
Planning to use the intercooler, exhaust system from the 335i.

Where did you get your pistons from and which brand? Do you have a link for me? Do you use the same rods? Did you solve the pressure problem?

Which tune are you running on BM3? 28i or PWG20i? Maybe the tune can cause an error. I would try the 328i stock tune and see if it throws the same error.

Last edited by BMGSS; 06-13-2022 at 08:52 AM..
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      06-13-2022, 11:04 AM   #12
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As you were told on Reddit, this is a waste of money + time.

https://reddit.com/r/F30/comments/v9..._320i_to_328i/

F30 320/328/335i all share the same intercooler.

320i with higher compression will utilize more timing vs boost, 328i will utilize more boost vs timing to make same power levels.

320i with jb4.

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=849566

FBO 328i

You see the dyno + numbers at 11:20 or so



Power outcome for both compression variants is the same. The stock Turbo limits the power than can be made regardless of how you get there.
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      06-13-2022, 07:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMGSS View Post
Hey im planning something similar on my 320i.
Planning to use the intercooler, exhaust system from the 335i.

Where did you get your pistons from and which brand? Do you have a link for me? Do you use the same rods? Did you solve the pressure problem?

Which tune are you running on BM3? 28i or PWG20i? Maybe the tune can cause an error. I would try the 328i stock tune and see if it throws the same error.
you need to do some research bro
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      06-14-2022, 08:20 AM   #14
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No.

Thanks for linking my reddit post. If youre read it completely you could see why Its worth it for me. Im still not asking if its worth it. Im asking which parts be used.
But here a short refresh for you if you didnt read my comment completely:

1. No "mods" will be done except a bigger exhaust (see below why)
I'm doing an complete engine overhaul/refreshment. It cost around 1000€ with no part cost. The "upgrade" happen automatically because in production differents pistons are used. But in replacement catalogue you only can buy the OL-class quality ones. Its because BMW follows an in english translated "same-part" strategy. In production its cheaper to use different parts because the pistons for example are cheaper for the 320i because of the lack of chromium. Chromium is a really hard metal with a high melting point. Its hard to process it. The UL-quality class only uses a bit of that material. They safe a lot of money because of this. Theyre not doing it to scam the customers, theyre doing it to make the engine affordable for people. It has a reason that the engine was aroung $4000 cheaper than the 328i.

But in the replacement catalogue they only offer the OL(high)-quality ones because the storage and managing costs doesnt make it profitable to maintain two quality types.
If my engine get's an overhaul, the 320i pistons will be replaced by 328i pistons automatically. Even if I don't want it.
You can literally see in this topic on that first picture from thread OP that the pistons look the same. Its because in replacement they are.
Im not doing the overhaul because of an "upgrade", im doing this because some other engine related parts start to make noises too.
An overhaul with no big damage is cheaper than a full engine replacement.

So: "How to upgrade to 328i pistons?" "just buy new pistons for your 320i model in oem replacement catalogue".
"Nobody wants a modded 320i" - Its not modded, its a refreshed engine with new OEM parts who are made for THIS engine model.

2. Regarding to the 320i tuning:
Yes the 328i might have some headroom for tuning but for the stock 320i it looks different. Yes it can run good in first place but in long term it will not. I'll explain why:

First of all I recommend to read this (translate it with google translater to english)
Its a statement of the N47 engineer whos holding the patents of some engines. It's a kinda dealoff with all of these "tuners".
https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/akti...hmentId=746891
After you read this, you will know why I say the lack of chromium in the stock 320i pistons will harm the engine in bigger tunes. 320i models have lack of Copper too, which makes the heat spreading more difficult.

So:
The UL quality class has only a really small amount of chromium and copper proportion which makes it easy to produce. They were made by a simple stamp casting process and don't really need post processing.

The OL quality class as a bigger proportion. They need to be made by centrifugal casting process which require post processing too.

The TOP quality class as a chromium porpotion of over 5%. All of the alloy on the pistons with be hand-forged.

This different types in casting process is because the material is really temperature resistent which makes it hard to process.

The N20B is UL quality class and the N20A is OL quality class.
They is no TOP for this engine. (A top could be a 4 cylinder n20 m power for example as the N55(OL) and S55(TOP))

3. Further the compression makes a difference. Higher compression gives better fuel economy and makes the engine more efficient. But running higher boost pressure on stock pistons isn't that easy long term.

You apply your boost pressure on the CR by this formula:
ECR = ((Boost/ 14.7) +1) *cr
(boost = max. boost, 14,7 stands for the pressure on atmosphere and CR is the compression ratio)
If you can't do maths use this calculator:
https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compression.htm

The stock boost for the 328i model is 17 psi. This makes an effective compression ratio of 21.56:1 If you want to run the same amount of boost on the 320i you archive an effective compression ratio of 24.37:1. Pressing air into such a small space makes the temparature so hot, that could cause missfire. Yes the control unit tries to avoid missfires but engine knock will harm your engine.
Now think of the missing Copper mentioned above which could help to spread the heat causing of the high eff. compression.
While the 328i is already running an effective compression of ~21:1 imagine how the engine 320i feels if you run all the day with full throttle.
The engine can peak with temparatures of over 2000C while Almumium already melts at 660C. Think about it

You have a bigger headroom on the 328i because if you run bigger boost and archive a higher effective compression the cylinder cooling is still given. Almost "good" because of the high Copper proportion spreading the heat over the piston. The chromium alloy makes the piston harder to break and deform.
On the N20B the heat stucks in the top of the piston because aluminium is not good in spreading heat as copper. Big CPU's uses Copper parts to archive better cooling too while lower powered CPU's only run aluminium.
It's like overclocking a CPU with stock cooling.

4. An other limiting factor is the stock exhaust. The 320i uses a midpipe diameter of 65mm. If you substract the material you get to an effective diameter of 60mm. You can calculate your most possible power handling by diameter here: https://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator5.php
You only can run power up to 229hp with this exhaust system. So stock boost which makes you go above, will harm the turbo because of the lack of flow. The heat will "stuck" in the turbo which makes the whole engine heat up. More heat causes the turbine wheel to bend.

5. Btw. It has a reason why BMW only releases "BMW Performance Kits" with a new Intercooler and a new control unit BUT still only gives you around 10hp or 20hp more.
It has a reason why the M5 Competition and the M5 CS only have a difference of 10hp. Because its not easy to run more power safely as all the tuners say.
Yes you can run over 300hp stock on dyno. But if you drive everyday on full throttle with 200Km/h minimum as me it wouldnt be that healthy as you think. Sometimes people who got a software modded engine will end up with a glowing turbo which causes damage to the turbine wheel as mention above. Just look for it on youtube.

That the turbo is limiting its not really true either. I'm trying to run the same boost as the 328i. It's the same turbo so if it can handle the stock boost it can handle my boost with the same pressure

Ofc the tuners say different. But ask yourself why they dont give real warranty and exclude taxis, cars for rental, cars for currier aka. cars with high milage expection if you get warranty. They will always tell you "yes they BMW etc. limit the car by software so they make more money its a scam". If you engine breaks you and the tuner blame BMW for the lack of quality. This is the source for tuner to make money and sadly a lot of people fall for it.
Thats why modern cars like newer BMW's adding nower days a lot of security features for the control units to maintain its safety so the engine dont get used over its power limits. Tuners remove you this barrier to tell you "its to scam people and charge more money for better engines"
They will always tell you how many "good" tunes he made but never how many engines broke by his tune. He isnt stupid and would harm his business.

I know I'll get a lot of hate for this because it's maths and proofs instead of "trust me bro" so have fun downvoting.

One thing i've learned now from online forums and reddit, people try to answer everywhere with no source of the information. Even when the information isn't related to the topic as it's here the case.
This is why a lot of misinformation occurs in online boards.

Since when is a comment like "Its a waste of money" helpful on a "Which parts did you use" question?
Yes the 320i runs 270hp on Dyno their. I can find a lot of videos of people Dyno their cars on YouTube. Thanks for this but it didn't answer my question which parts got used.
"You need to do some research" doesnt seem like a burst of information which could help somebody.

I know you guys trying to help, but stick to the topic. I didnt look for opinions if its cost effective. Ive asked which parts was used so I can make refences.
If you think something isn't right, reply to the comment direclty and proof yourself with sources.
Thank you

If you want to see the source take a look at the german link above.
Ive made an DeepL translation of this and put it to the attachement. Have fun reading
Attached Images
File Type: pdf entwickler en-GB.pdf (153.4 KB, 74 views)

Last edited by BMGSS; 06-14-2022 at 02:44 PM..
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      06-14-2022, 10:44 AM   #15
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Don't care about your source. Either way your stuck in your ways for "oem pistons brah."

s55 rods and pistons are a direct swap, same compression as the "low compression superior 328i with more chromium content" and have higher stock levels of boost rated to them. If you do anything, this is the way.

Otherwise with larger aftermarket rods + pistons require notching the cylinder walls to accommodate the wider connecting rods and aftermarket sleeves or having the factory plasma cylinder wall coating reapplied after honing the cylinder walls to ensure conformity.

Chose your route, but then again you're throwing money down the drain over some "internet article"

Addressing some things in your rant post:

"The stock boost for the 328i model is 17 psi. This makes an effective compression ratio of 21.56:1 If you want to run the same amount of boost on the 320i you archive an effective compression ratio of 24.37:1."

This is true, and that's why we say you run more timing vs boost targets when it comes to 320 vs 328i for power generation. The td04-16T turbo this car comes stock with maxes out around 21psi or so at 6200 or above. Thus a lower boost target for the high compression motors and more timing is utilized to make the same power.

"4. An other limiting factor is the stock exhaust. The 320i uses a midpipe diameter of 65mm. If you substract the material you get to an effective diameter of 60mm."

ID for these pipes is a bit larger than you claim. Either way the stock downpipe goes from a 4" inlet directly off the turbo, into a catalytic converter, slowly making its way down to 3", finally 2.75" / 69mm or so. This exhaust pipe is good for around 400 whp or so, and after that it's recommended to go 3" / 76mm or larger. I've measured this off my own car.

Fun part is, all of this is irrelevant if you stay on the stock turbo as on GOOD 93/98 Ron, the car will only make around 280-290whp tops. Thus, a larger exhaust isn't worth it nor limits how fast exhaust gases can leave the hot side of the turbo and out the muffler/back box. Again, throwing money into the wind.

"Ofc the tuners say different. But ask yourself why they dont give real warranty and exclude taxis, cars for rental, cars for currier aka. cars with high milage expection if you get warranty. They will always tell you "yes they BMW etc. limit the car by software so they make more money its a scam". If you engine breaks you and the tuner blame BMW for the lack of quality. This is the source for tuner to make money and sadly a lot of people fall for it.
Thats why modern cars like newer BMW's adding nower days a lot of security features for the control units to maintain its safety so the engine dont get used over its power limits. Tuners remove you this barrier to tell you "its to scam people and charge more money for better engines"
They will always tell you how many "good" tunes he made but never how many engines broke by his tune. He isnt stupid and would harm his business."

This is all BS and misinformation. Car manufactures don't run their cars and sell them at near 90/100% power output capacity as it makes sense to leave 20-25% of headroom available for reliability + warranty. This is due to the fail rate of manufacturing of metals + electronics. If you leave room on the table, you have less claims and allow for reliability. Tuners like to push this window of safety to around 4-5% to have headroom of margin, but still not be one engine knock/ small amount of detonation away from breaking things. Common knowledge.

"One thing i've learned now from online forums and reddit, people try to answer everywhere with no source of the information. Even when the information isn't related to the topic as it's here the case.
This is why a lot of misinformation occurs in online boards."

Sadly you have become what you claim you are fighting against with your ignorance.

We can agree to disagree all day, but otherwise don't let that minivan, lorrie, or diesel vw passat pass you by.
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      06-14-2022, 11:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
F30 320/328/335i all share the same intercooler.
That's not true, they're all different. They do seem to be interchangeable though.

F30 320i: 17517600530, 2.93kg -> Valeo 818259
F30 328i: 17517618809, 4.1kg -> Valeo 818263
F30 335i: 17517600531, 2.95kg -> Valeo 818260

I wonder how the 328i intercooler would do on an N55 engine, it might actually be an upgrade if it can handle the airflow. Certainly lighter than going with an aftermarket one.
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      06-14-2022, 12:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSmith View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
F30 320/328/335i all share the same intercooler.
That's not true, they're all different. They do seem to be interchangeable though.

F30 320i: 17517600530, 2.93kg -> Valeo 818259
F30 328i: 17517618809, 4.1kg -> Valeo 818263
F30 335i: 17517600531, 2.95kg -> Valeo 818260

I wonder how the 328i intercooler would do on an N55 engine, it might actually be an upgrade if it can handle the airflow. Certainly lighter than going with an aftermarket one.
With a stock tune OP is stating to stick with, there wouldn't be any at all. Car gets heat soak with anything over a "stage 1 tune" and the stock intercooler. The $200 g-plus intercooler is seen as a upgrade no matter how inefficient it is compared to other options just due to sheer surface area it improves for air cooling. 3-4 pulls on the street and the g plus intercooler shines. It's when you do back to back to back pulls or road racing is where the eBay intercooler is faster to heat soak, limiting performance on the track/constant highway rolls.

The intercooler appears to be made from something designed for the x1 where the n20 originally came from, and end tanks were changed to fit the f2x/f3x when compared compared to the x1 and the f10 who also are fitted with the same intercooler core.
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      06-14-2022, 01:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
Don't care about your source.
Typical forum guy who try to spread his knowledge with no base. Yes source and math are not decivise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
s55 rods and pistons are a direct swap
Or directly swap with the OEM part number of the 320i in replacement catalogue and archive a similar result as I said. No modifications at all. Cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
Otherwise with larger aftermarket rods + pistons require notching the cylinder walls to accommodate the wider connecting rods and aftermarket sleeves or having the factory plasma cylinder wall coating reapplied after honing the cylinder walls to ensure conformity.
Yes you talk about after market rods and pistons. Im aware of that that the MaxSpeedingRods with Wössner pistons for example dont match directly. People do this to run above 350hp and still need to support the cylinders by CSS to prevent from breaking. You guys talking that a stock car with only downpipe and software can match the same energy. lol

But im talking about OEM. An overhaul is always done with the matching replacement parts for this engine of OEM brands. Mahle for example. (Brand for the OEM BMW pistons)
No modifications / No third branded parts. Same result.
(Read the section about the same-part strategy of BMW)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
.. over some "internet article"
It's literally the engineer whos holding the patents of BMW lol
Funny how you think you're smarter than the guy who made your engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
The td04-16T turbo this car comes stock with maxes out around 21psi or so at 6200 or above. Thus a lower boost target for the high compression motors and more timing is utilized to make the same power.
Yes the you can max out the turbo and the higher compression relies more on timing. But read my post carefully again. The temps are way to high for the whole system. For pistons turbo and exhaust system.
You can apply a small boost maybe to reach it real limits but it's only minimal. As I said, it has a reason why BMW only release power kits with ~+10hp.
Think different: The 11:1 compression is way more economical. If you could run the same power in that compression. Why BMW dont use 11:1 compression for 328i too? Because they can not. Dont think BMW is stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
ID for these pipes is a bit larger than you claim.
No its not. Read it up. Here for you: https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...BMW-320i&mg=18
Stop spreading misinformation.
Its 65mm for 320i and 75mm for 328i.
You can optimize the flowdown by replacing the downpipe but the flow still gets blocked midpipe like a bottleneck. So still bullshit. Otherwise show me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
Thus, a larger exhaust isn't worth it nor limits how fast exhaust gases can leave the hot side of the turbo and out the muffler/back box.
The diameter is still small for power over it's limits. I think its magic that the 328i runs higher boost and have coincidentally a bigger exhaust system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
This is all BS and misinformation
Yes BMW loves to scam people and charge money. $4000 less for the same engine!! what a scam!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
Car manufactures don't run their cars and sell them at near 90/100% power output capacity as it makes sense to leave 20-25% of headroom available for reliability + warranty
Its not the same case for every engine. If you would have read my post I said that the 328i has that headroom you've mentioned. But I explained you why the headroom for the 320i is smaller. Yes every engine has headroom but for the 320i its really really small. I wouldn't tune over 200-210hp by software only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
Tuners like to push this window of safety to around 4-5% to have headroom of margin
My point is that tuners tune way out of this margin which gets the engine into a critical area. Yes for the people who cant max out their cars because they only make 0-100 or drive 130km/h at max its relyable. But people who continuesly max out their cars will harm their engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
We can agree to disagree all day, but otherwise don't let that minivan, lorrie, or diesel vw passat pass you by.
What should I say to this. Great argumentation. Thanks for opening my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
Common knowledge
Yes. "trust me bro" > Source/Proof/Maths

Last edited by BMGSS; 06-14-2022 at 01:46 PM..
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      06-14-2022, 01:17 PM   #19
sqwinny
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Post your dyno sheets my good forum "guru man". I will wait.

I have my data, where as you have none personally. Actually you know what, I don't get paid to debate a stubborn person over the internets who is determined to have a forum battle over 40whp 😂

Good day sir, I wish you luck. Can't believe you're the first person I've had to "block" on bimmerpost.
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      06-14-2022, 01:44 PM   #20
BMGSS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
Post your dyno sheets my good forum "guru man". I will wait.

I have my data, where as you have none personally. Actually you know what, I don't get paid to debate a stubborn person over the internets who is determined to have a forum battle over 40whp 😂

Good day sir, I wish you luck. Can't believe you're the first person I've had to "block" on bimmerpost.
In which form is a Dyno run related to this?

Thinking 40whp is small is stupid thinking. It's almost 25%.
We are talking about a stock 184hp engine which is made for simple people who only try to get from a to b. Not an S55 M engine which is made for race and tuning. In this relation its a lot.

Yes the fact that im proofing my states with numbers/math/source is hard to take. I know. I fully understand that youre going to block me because of this. Go ahead.

Thank you and have fun mate. Good luck with your car. Hope it will last the next miles. But if it last please tell the next owner what youve run on this so he knows the engine condition.
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      06-14-2022, 02:20 PM   #21
Billfitz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sqwinny View Post
Can't believe you're the first person I've had to "block" on bimmerpost.
Give it time. A common trait of those that I've blocked is that they revealed themselves to be not worth wasting one's time on within their first few posts. Another is that they tend to get banned eventually.

And yes, if you want 335 performance from a 320 sell the 320 and buy a 335.
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      06-14-2022, 02:22 PM   #22
BMGSS
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Originally Posted by Billfitz View Post
And yes, if you want 335 performance from a 320 sell the 320 and buy a 335.
Didnt say that

But cool that post count measures the knowledge
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