[nicknaz]

My wife's 2013 F30 335 was in for service (visit #3 to resolve side view mirror memory issue ) and I got an F30 Activehybrid 3 as a loaner. I thought I would share in case there were any community members were wondering if the 335 hybrid had a "real world" benefit over the gas only 335.

Overall, I think the idea of the car AH3 is pretty cool but I couldn't figure out a reason to pay several thousand more for the AH3 vs. the 335. It seems the key benefit of the AH3 is the ability to say "I drive a hybrid".

The AH3 did not feel any faster, which makes sense to me due to the higher weight and longer final drive, and there was no fuel economy benefit over 3 days of the same driving I normally do (50/50 city/highway) even though I was purposely driving conservatively in ECO PRO and trying to stay in eDrive mode to maximize the potential benefits of the AH3.

I couldn't make any observations in terms of handling, because the AH3 loaner was a no-line with non staggered all seasons and our 335 is sport line with staggered summer tires, so it isn't an apples to apples comparison. Obviously, the summer tires had more grip, but the overall balance seemed similar. Also obvious was the huge wheel gap of the base suspension

If I was looking for fuel economy, I would go with the 328d because I had a 2013 328i loaner previously and it was able to beat the AH3 and 335 by only 2.5 combined MPG (again, similar driving).

In case any BMW NA product planners read this... how about making the next AH3 have the 2.0 diesel from the 320d.. (excuse me... 328d...) bundled with the hybrid tech. I bet that would have the great highway efficiency of the diesel with the better city efficiency of the hybrid.

[435iaffair]

Interesting analysis...thanks for posting!

[Kabrich]

Interesting as once again a poster with incorrect info on AH3 v 335i.

Sticker Price of AH3 is above 335i, yet actual price is always below 335i for exact same options. As thus, the AH3 is cheaper, so the poster paid MORE for a 335i, which as he notes, was no different than the AH3.

He also failed to note ASS works correctly on a AH3. AC and electric circuits do not shut down at a stoplight.

And had he done heavy city driving, he would have seen a difference in mpg v his 335i.

[drob23]

It's always good to have more data even if it is somewhat in conflict with our perspective. The purpose of the AH 3 is not to be an eco machine but rather have the benefits of hybrid functionality (city MPG) without compromising the driving dynamics of the 335i. The fact that you didn't find it inferior is a pretty big accomplishment IMO.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Kabrich

Interesting as once again a poster with incorrect info on AH3 v 335i.

Sticker Price of AH3 is above 335i, yet actual price is always below 335i for exact same options. As thus, the AH3 is cheaper, so the poster paid MORE for a 335i, which as he notes, was no different than the AH3.

He also failed to note ASS works correctly on a AH3. AC and electric circuits do not shut down at a stoplight.

And had he done heavy city driving, he would have seen a difference in mpg v his 335i.

Kabrich, please tell me you are not getting 20.4mpg in your AH3. I see a fuelly icon with that number on your signature.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Kabrich

Interesting as once again a poster with incorrect info on AH3 v 335i.

Sticker Price of AH3 is above 335i, yet actual price is always below 335i for exact same options. As thus, the AH3 is cheaper, so the poster paid MORE for a 335i, which as he notes, was no different than the AH3.

He also failed to note ASS works correctly on a AH3. AC and electric circuits do not shut down at a stoplight.

And had he done heavy city driving, he would have seen a difference in mpg v his 335i.

Hello, I did not price out an AH3 when I was shopping for the 335 this past May so I can't comment on your pricing statement from personal experience.

I did check out truecar.com a few minutes ago to see what the 'guaranteed price' was in my area.. 92108.. and saw that the 335 was cheaper by several thousand than AH3 (both sticker price and 'guaranteed' transaction price are lower for 335 than AH3)

Also, my 335 was $1500 under US delivery invoice when I got it this past May, so I am not at all worried that I overpaid. Thanks for your concern though!

I agree with you, that the engine start-stop is more effective in the AH3, since the engine can stay off for longer, and the car can creep forward using the electric motor in traffic. The restart of engine is also smoother in the AH3. However, the 335 interior electronics, interior climate control and exterior lights all stay on when the engine is off. I am not sure what flaw you are referring to.

Regardless, at the end of the day the point of engine stop start is to save fuel and I did not see any overall fuel economy improvement with 50% city driving even though I was driving the AH3 in eco pro and trying to stay in eDrive as much as possible. As you said, perhaps if I lived in constant gridlock I would have seen the difference (EPA rating +2mpg.....)

If you notice, I have tried to be as balanced as possible by stating my usage pattern and trying to use the AH3 ECO PRO and eDrive as much as possible.

Is it really my facts are incorrect or is it that you don't like my point of view on the AH3?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Hello, I did not price out an AH3 when I was shopping for the 335 this past May so I can't comment on your pricing statement from personal experience.

I did check out truecar.com a few minutes ago to see what the 'guaranteed price' was in my area.. 92108.. and saw that the 335 was cheaper by several thousand than AH3, both in sticker price and the discount local dealers have signed up to 'guarantee'.

Also, my 335 was $1500 under US delivery invoice when I got it this past May, and the residual % on my lease contract is 65%, so I am not at all worried that I overpaid. Thanks for your concern though!

I agree with you, that the engine start-stop is more effective in the AH3, since the engine can stay off for longer, and the car can creep forward using the electric motor in traffic.

However, at the end of the day the point of engine stop start is to save fuel and I did not see any overall fuel economy improvement with 50% city driving even though I was driving the AH3 in eco pro and trying to stay in eDrive as much as possible. As you said, perhaps if I lived in constant gridlock I would have seen the difference

So, I think it is not so much that my information is incorrect (I really have no incentive to post anything other than my experiences with the two cars) and more than you do not like the facts I posted or my conclusions. If you notice, I have tried to be as balanced as possible by stating my usage pattern and trying to use the AH3 ECO PRO and eDrive as much as possible.

What I have seen is many people are leasing, and when leased the AH3 time and time again winds up costing a bit less than a similar 335.

[jdong]

Thanks for sharing your experiences on the ActiveHybrid 3.

Your observations are mostly consistent with what most people feel about the AH3. The key point is that the AH3 is not a maximum-fuel-economy vehicle. It's meant to provide 335i-or-better performance at 335i-or-better fuel economy.

As you mentioned, if your driving pattern involves more gridlock, waiting at stoplights, or running the AC in hot summer traffic where auto-start-stop can't work for longer than 10 seconds in a regular 335i, then you would have seen more fuel economy benefits.

When I got a 2013 328i loaner, I observed about 2mpg worse than my AH3 due to an average 15mph or so commute.

Note that for the most part, Eco Pro's benefits on the AH3 are not as beneficial. It's meant to be driven normally and gives you better gas mileage, by allowing the engine to shut off more during coasting and to smooth out aggressive acceleration using electric boost.

Yes the car would be more efficient if it had a 328d or 328i engine in it, but that's not the goal for this car. (If you're looking for a car like that, the Q5 Hybrid is more similar to what you want). Remember that the AH3 is 5 years of development, and at that time, the N20 was not an option. In fact, the designers have mentioned that the N20 is already so efficient at all operating ranges that hybridizing it would result in even less of a gain in efficiency than what you're seeing with the N55.

You are right that a lot of the benefits of the AH3 are not practical, and is more of a "geek appeal" car. For me, it's really cool to think about all the things in my AH3 that are working together seamlessly to deliver the driving experience it offers. Yes, it has a cost premium (retail), but BMW is absorbing a lot of that for leases, and this car is more of a beta-test platform for a future plugin hybrid.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Is it really my facts are incorrect or is it that you don't like my point of view on the AH3?

I think it's the latter to be honest. Kabrich is a bit on the abrasive side most of the time. I know this from personal experience (..I believe that it was him who essentially called me a liar because I, like most people, see a decrease in insurance rates at renewal periods.......assuming that there have been no moving violations. He also went on to state that rates usually go up annually; I don't know what world he lives in. Lastly, he called me a liar because my rates didn't increase after filing a claim. There were others who had claims and didn't experience increased rates either. I guess we're all liars.).

[jdong]

I think the main thing that's "incorrect" was that due to the 2-3% higher residual BMW is offering on the ActiveHybrids, often combined with an Eco Credit, the AH3 leases tend to be similar in price or lower than an equivalently optioned 335i.

Everything else is just an opinion and set of observations that both "sides" are entitled to.

[nicknaz]

Good point on the residuals. It is amazing what deals can come up when the timing is right with the BMW FS programs.

When I was shopping for my 335 in June 2013 the residual was 65% for a 36 mo/10k per year lease. Then a month later with the 2014 switch over it dropped to 60%.

Out of curiosity, how much under invoice are AH3 owners able to negotiate once ECO credit and everything else is factored in?

[jdong]

You got an excellent deal on your lease!

At the time I was shopping, I had a 335i and AH3 in my sights and I drove both back to back and negotiated both at 3 different dealerships, and it ended up that the AH3 was roughly the same price.

The other factors that pushed me were that the AH3 had closer to the set of options I wanted, and at the time, the 335i has a CIC nav while the AH3 had the much superior NBT nav. Those were the main things that swayed me in the direction of the AH3, not as much the fuel economy benefits.

I think BMW deserves a lot of credit for making a performance hybrid that drives so similarly to the gas equivalent. I don't know if you've driven a hybridized M35h, GS450h, Camry, Altima, Volt, or Fusion before, but with those cars, I felt the telltale signs that the car is a hybrid (rough transitions, inconsistent accelerator responsiveness, slushy brakes and jarred brake transitions between regen and mechanical)

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Also, my 335 was $1500 under US delivery invoice when I got it this past May, so I am not at all worried that I overpaid. Thanks for your concern though!

Did you order your car or was it off the lot?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by jdong

You got an excellent deal on your lease!

At the time I was shopping, I had a 335i and AH3 in my sights and I drove both back to back and negotiated both at 3 different dealerships, and it ended up that the AH3 was roughly the same price.

The other factors that pushed me were that the AH3 had closer to the set of options I wanted, and at the time, the 335i has a CIC nav while the AH3 had the much superior NBT nav. Those were the main things that swayed me in the direction of the AH3, not as much the fuel economy benefits.

I think BMW deserves a lot of credit for making a performance hybrid that drives so similarly to the gas equivalent. I don't know if you've driven a hybridized M35h, GS450h, Camry, Altima, Volt, or Fusion before, but with those cars, I felt the telltale signs that the car is a hybrid (rough transitions, inconsistent accelerator responsiveness, slushy brakes and jarred brake transitions between regen and mechanical)

I agreed the NBT nav is pretty nice. I like the the 'online widgets', voice input and touchpad controller. I use the BMW Apps to search and send places to the car so that makes the CIC nav more tolerable for me.

My only other hybrid experience is Prius, and my wife and I fought over who would NOT drive it.... This wasn't the case with AH3, where I felt like it was the gas only 335.

During my first post I did not realize the superior leases that some people got on their AH3 vs. 335 when they were shopping. I would probably have gone AH3 myself if it was cheaper than 335 when I was shopping.

One thing is for sure though, when it comes time to pick a loaner car, I will specifically try to get the dealer's AH3 instead of 328 or 320

@snowghost it was off the lot. I was too late to order a 2013 model and didn't want to risk the residual or MF change with a 2014 (in hindsight, good thing I did not wait)

[Kabrich]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Hello, I did not price out an AH3 when I was shopping for the 335 this past May so I can't comment on your pricing statement from personal experience.

I did check out truecar.com a few minutes ago to see what the 'guaranteed price' was in my area.. 92108.. and saw that the 335 was cheaper by several thousand than AH3 (both sticker price and 'guaranteed' transaction price are lower for 335 than AH3)

Also, my 335 was $1500 under US delivery invoice when I got it this past May, so I am not at all worried that I overpaid. Thanks for your concern though!

I agree with you, that the engine start-stop is more effective in the AH3, since the engine can stay off for longer, and the car can creep forward using the electric motor in traffic. The restart of engine is also smoother in the AH3. However, the 335 interior electronics, interior climate control and exterior lights all stay on when the engine is off. I am not sure what flaw you are referring to.

Regardless, at the end of the day the point of engine stop start is to save fuel and I did not see any overall fuel economy improvement with 50% city driving even though I was driving the AH3 in eco pro and trying to stay in eDrive as much as possible. As you said, perhaps if I lived in constant gridlock I would have seen the difference (EPA rating +2mpg.....)

If you notice, I have tried to be as balanced as possible by stating my usage pattern and trying to use the AH3 ECO PRO and eDrive as much as possible.

Is it really my facts are incorrect or is it that you don't like my point of view on the AH3?

Your point of view is correct as it is your point of view. Your facts are incorrect though. And point of view based on incorrect facts are thus based on flawed information.

[Kabrich]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I think it's the latter to be honest. Kabrich is a bit on the abrasive side most of the time. I know this from personal experience (..I believe that it was him who essentially called me a liar because I, like most people, see a decrease in insurance rates at renewal periods.......assuming that there have been no moving violations. He also went on to state that rates usually go up annually; I don't know what world he lives in. Lastly, he called me a liar because my rates didn't increase after filing a claim. There were others who had claims and didn't experience increased rates either. I guess we're all liars.).

Just to be clear, as we got to the bottom of that thread and others like it, we determined you were with an Insurance Company that had quoted rates 50%-100% higher than what could be found with other reputable companies which increase premiums 10% with a claim.

So you are right, your rates did not go up 10% when you filed a claim. However, you are overpaying 50%-100% every year for the privilege to save 10%.

[Kabrich]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Kabrich, please tell me you are not getting 20.4mpg in your AH3. I see a fuelly icon with that number on your signature.

That is my mileage with virtually 100% city driving. EPA puts city a 25 and highway at 33, but we all know what the EPA numbers are worth.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Kabrich

Just to be clear, as we got to the bottom of that thread and others like it, we determined you were with an Insurance Company that had quoted rates 50%-100% higher than what could be found with other reputable companies which increase premiums 10% with a claim.

So you are right, your rates did not go up 10% when you filed a claim. However, you are overpaying 50%-100% every year for the privilege to save 10%.

No, we didn't come to that conclusion. I was paying +/- $1200 a year to fully insure a 2011.5 M3 with State Farm. I had a $100 comp deductible, a $500 collision deductible, above average uninsured motorist insurance, etc. Show me exactly HOW I was overpaying, and show me another carrier that betters that rate (..especially in Southern California). There are other factors that affect that rate (..specific location, years licensed, other vehicles/properties on the policy, etc.), but I'm curious what you're going to come up with. I'll be awaiting your response.

In fact, let's hear what you're paying for your AH3.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Kabrich

That is my mileage with virtually 100% city driving.

I am getting about 17mpg in my 335 in the city, so you are achieving +3mpg!

GO AH3!!



BTW, is your residual higher than 65% for a 36 month/10k yr lease and did you get more than 10% off sticker price on a non euro delivery car?

I truly am curious as to whether I could have saved a few $ had I gone with the AH3 in May 2013.

[DesertSmokeBBQ]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Hello, I did not price out an AH3 when I was shopping for the 335 this past May so I can't comment on your pricing statement from personal experience.

I did check out truecar.com a few minutes ago to see what the 'guaranteed price' was in my area.. 92108.. and saw that the 335 was cheaper by several thousand than AH3 (both sticker price and 'guaranteed' transaction price are lower for 335 than AH3)

Also, my 335 was $1500 under US delivery invoice when I got it this past May, so I am not at all worried that I overpaid. Thanks for your concern though!

I agree with you, that the engine start-stop is more effective in the AH3, since the engine can stay off for longer, and the car can creep forward using the electric motor in traffic. The restart of engine is also smoother in the AH3. However, the 335 interior electronics, interior climate control and exterior lights all stay on when the engine is off. I am not sure what flaw you are referring to.

Regardless, at the end of the day the point of engine stop start is to save fuel and I did not see any overall fuel economy improvement with 50% city driving even though I was driving the AH3 in eco pro and trying to stay in eDrive as much as possible. As you said, perhaps if I lived in constant gridlock I would have seen the difference (EPA rating +2mpg.....)

If you notice, I have tried to be as balanced as possible by stating my usage pattern and trying to use the AH3 ECO PRO and eDrive as much as possible.

Is it really my facts are incorrect or is it that you don't like my point of view on the AH3?

92108? You in PB?

[34.50]

Originally Posted by Kabrich

That is my mileage with virtually 100% city driving. EPA puts city a 25 and highway at 33, but we all know what the EPA numbers are worth.

Wait, 20.4 mpg @ 100% city driving? I get 20-21 mpg, 100% city driving in my 335xi...The majority of the time I'm in comfort mode - 75% comfort/25% sport.

[Arktctr]

Originally Posted by Kabrich

That is my mileage with virtually 100% city driving. EPA puts city a 25 and highway at 33, but we all know what the EPA numbers are worth.

Mine isn't much better but I am more like 50/50 (highway/city)...I was keeping it in eco pro for the first couple of months but have switched to Comfort as the normal mode to see if that has any affect. Its also a vastly superior driving experience as ecopro exhibits odd behaviors in transmission shifting and excessive revs without much "go".