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      03-01-2014, 01:06 PM   #1
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A crisis of faith in the M4

The April edition of Car & Driver hardly mentions the M4 at all. It's what it says about other cars that is turning me into a doubting Thomas. The topper is the comparison between a fully tricked out 435i (M Sport package plus Dynamic Handling Pack) versus the Audi S5. It's not just that Audi's Rings roundly routed the Roundel in this comparo that has provoked a crisis of faith deep within my BMW soul, it's how the vaunted formerly styled 3er coupe went down to ignominious defeat.

Quote:
But in the presence of the Audi, even its stiffened springs, shocks and anti-roll bars failed to fully rouse this M Sportiest 4-series. Comparatively speaking, the driver is isolated from wheel and suspension movements, and the slow steering seems so numb that it's the pulsing of the inside-front brake rather than any feedback through the wheel that indicates you've reached the cornering limit. At 0.90 g, that limit is hardly topped by the Audi, which feels like the better balanced and livelier car. This is especially surprising given the S5's greater forward weight bias. The BMW's numbness saps driver confidence, as the car doesn't provide the driver with enough information to form a complete picture of what's happening at the tires.
Ouch!
Quote:
Even with a 225-pound weight handicap (and carrying an extra 281 pounds on its front tires), the Audi pummeled the BMW in every performance test, launching harder, turning sharper, and stopping shorter.
Double Ouch!!!

Will the M4 similarly underwhelm against its determined completion?

I think BMW might soon find itself outgunned by the synergistic capabilities created by having Audi, Porsche, and VW owned by the same German uber-car conglomerate. Case in point is that in the same edition of C & D, which features 25 cars worth waiting for, we find that Walter de' Silva (the designer who inked the elegant, though aging, Audi A5 coupe designs) has lent his creative designer pen to the upcoming Audi Sport Quattro which is expected to be packing more than 400 ponies and aimed squarely at the M4.

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Then we have Porsche who are earnestly putting the finishing touches on a mini Panamera design (mini-Pee?) using an Audi platform code named Pajun. The sedan will be AWD, have turbo 6's on board, and packing north of 400 hp. They want a high volume seller here and are aiming this German machine gun at the M3.

Oh Teutonic Gods of Autosport, will yea allow thy loyal servant's M///agical handiwork to be outdone by this VW-backed behemoth?
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Last edited by M4TW; 03-01-2014 at 01:19 PM..
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      03-01-2014, 01:11 PM   #2
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Hope you brought some kind of flame-retardant material.

Edit: But I do agree with the general sentiments that the F3x has gotten soft.
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      03-01-2014, 01:16 PM   #3
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I don't think it's so much inability from BMWs side as it is that they build cars they think the majority wants instead of the best drivers cars. A shift in paradigm from the narrower enthusiast focus of the past to maximizing volume in the present. Sad thing for some of us is that it's working.

However the M3/M4 is a different matter. BMW should know their M3 buyers and this soft, isolated luxo cruisers cars will not satisfy the majority of these buyers, or does it?
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      03-01-2014, 01:21 PM   #4
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Because I couldn't get this one in the first post.

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      03-01-2014, 01:34 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I don't think it's so much inability from BMWs side as it is that they build cars they think the majority wants instead of the best drivers cars. A shift in paradigm from the narrower enthusiast focus of the past to maximizing volume in the present. Sad thing for some of us is that it's working.

However the M3/M4 is a different matter. BMW should know their M3 buyers and this soft, isolated luxo cruisers cars will not satisfy the majority of these buyers, or does it?
I'd (sort of) like to believe it is true that BMW has intentionally made even the sportiest version of the regular 3/4-series line numb, rather than the current product being the result of lack of ability. Though it's not actually very comforting that all of the engineers with enthusiast inclinations are so overruled. Yes, the masses probably do indeed want cars reflecting different tradeoffs than enthusiasts. But would "the masses" not have enough cars tuned to their numb preference if the base, luxury line, modern line and even regular sport line were all this way, to meet wider sales targets? And just one single model - the M-sport with further optional suspension - was tuned to provide proper feedback, to ensure sales to enthusiasts? Assuming BMW knows how anymore. Anyway, I find little comfort in this being a conscious decision.

And still hope the M3/M4 will be dramatically better.
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      03-01-2014, 01:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdss6 View Post
I'd (sort of) like to believe it is true that BMW has intentionally made even the sportiest version of the regular 3/4-series line numb, rather than the current product being the result of lack of ability. Though it's not actually very comforting that all of the engineers with enthusiast inclinations are so overruled. Yes, the masses probably do indeed want cars reflecting different tradeoffs than enthusiasts. But would "the masses" not have enough cars tuned to their numb preference if the base, luxury line, modern line and even regular sport line were all this way, to meet wider sales targets? And just one single model - the M-sport with further optional suspension - was tuned to provide proper feedback, to ensure sales to enthusiasts? Assuming BMW knows how anymore. Anyway, I find little comfort in this being a conscious decision.

And still hope the M3/M4 will be dramatically better.
You're preaching to the choir , there are so much soft choices but they still made the F10 M-sport uber isolated and even the M5 is isolated. The F8X will be the only focused car left if it is which I think it is. Too much prestige to throw away rides on this car.

M-sport packages are mainly cosmetics today.

Last edited by solstice; 03-01-2014 at 02:01 PM..
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      03-01-2014, 01:57 PM   #7
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I will agree that the cars are a bit softer, but that's BMW responding to statements/complaints about "harshness".

OP, I would take rag reviews with a grain of salt. This review provides a different perspective on the same cars.
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      03-01-2014, 01:58 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
You're preaching to the choir , there are so much soft choices but they still made the F10 M-sport uber isolated and even the M5 is isolated. The F8X will be the only focused car left if it is which I think it is. Too much prestige to throw away rides on this car.

M-sport packages are mainly cosmetics today.
True. And given what is riding on the car I still have high hopes for the M3/M4...tinged with some fear of a repeat of the M5 experience where we have to wait for an expensive later Competition Package, to fix the handling.
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      03-01-2014, 02:14 PM   #9
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First of all, Car and Driver is too busy sucking Audi and GM's collective pahllus in their rags to really look at what's going on. While I agree that the more recent offerings from Audi are dynamically superior to non-M BMW's, I don't agree to the degree at which they wantonly heap praise on these cars. It's really nauseating. And I have no dog in the fight.

Having said that, I will also say that after driving a 535 for 30 months and also driving no less than 3 LCI 550's, the M cars are so far and above beyond the regular cars it's not even funny. The M5 doesn't even feel remotely related to the 550.

I have no doubt that the M3 / M4 will be a total knockout. The cooking 3/4 series isn't THAT dynamically underwhelming. It's just that that Car and Driver misses it's beloved E9X steering...which honestly, I always found to be too heavy.

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      03-01-2014, 02:16 PM   #10
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The significance of this review takes on extra meaning when you consider that it was the April edition of Car and Driver 46 years ago that is credited with launching the predecessor to the 3 series in North America.

"Turn Your Hymnals to 2002" was so chalked full of exuberant praise for the 2002 that BMW itself points to this definitive 1968 article as being a turning point for the brand. Automotive journalistic pieces such as this helped engrave "handles like a BMW" into the collective motoring consciousness.

Car and Driver has consistently sung the praises of the BMW 3-series ever since.

So it is not without some moment that the same magazine on the 46th anniversary of this famous car-piece has taken a massive dump on the current model's handling - calling it numb and uncommunicative - and thus striking at the core value of what the 3 (and now 4) series is supposed to be all about.

The outgoing M3 was the undisputed champ of every comparison and test it was thrown into. Not only do the new M3/4 have big shoes to fill, now that BMW has apparently gone all Lexus and Lincoln on the 3/4 series, it must preserve the brand's image as maker of ultimate driving machines.
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      03-01-2014, 02:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
Because I couldn't get this one in the first post.

Attachment 985457
Yeah, now that is definitely going to be a car worth waiting for...
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      03-01-2014, 02:26 PM   #12
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It's hard to know what, or whom, to believe in when reading these reviews...

For instance here is UK magazine CAR's review of the 435i vs E400 vs S5:

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/...14-CAR-review/

Quote:
How does the BMW fare in this tricky terrain? It briefly struggles for grip, shaking off the ruffling revs by summoning second, then third gear. Moments later, it enters the zone. The 435i is the lightest car in this group by a 125-150kg margin, but on the N92 the silver coupe feels about 300kg less heavy than the competition. This could be due to the slightly quicker steering, the more eager gearing, the sharper chassis or the beefier low-end punch of the straight-six engine.

Whatever the reasons, the result is more involving and more entertaining handling. But the advantage over E400 and S5 remains surprisingly small, and it virtually pales into insignificance whenever the road opens up and the car moves into triple-digit mph territory. As soon as you touch the brakes again though, this subtle tactility returns, and it connects with your palms as the BMW turns in, aims for the apex and begs for the steering to open up again.

.......

Why does almost every BMW launch include a track session? Because these cars shine even when you don your gloves, put on the helmet and lower the visor. The 435i matches this picture and meets our expectations, even though it would further benefit from the beefier 335bhp engine installed in the Z4 35is, if only as the ultimate justification of that 4-series moniker. Once more, the BMW feels lighter, nimbler, more agile and quicker overall than the other two contestants. It’s also more chuckable, more willing to assume emphatic cornering attitudes, and more forgiving should your mind be more ambitious than your body is capable. Despite the wider 19in tyres, the silver coupe makes enough beautiful noises to generate a queue of spectators on a nearby flyover.


.......

So, who wins? The Audi costs most, yet at the end of day two it is the least loved of the three cars. It still looks stunning, its interior still feels special, and it’s still the coupe to beat against the stopwatch in a straight line.
....
Having said that, the BMW is more affordable, and although it doesn’t look quite special enough inside and out to justify that trumpeted 4-series badge, number four-three-five is again the pacesetter when it comes to having fun from A to B. And back. And forth again.
Makes you wonder if C&D and CAR drove the same car???



In this test by Auto Bild the 435i also comes out as the favourite...

http://www.**************.com/commun...s-coupe.49445/

Here's a video of the same test (you can choose subtitles and "translate to English" to get at least a rudimentary subtitling):




EVO also found it to be a fun car to drive on the twisties:

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...and_specs.html
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      03-01-2014, 02:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
The significance of this review takes on extra meaning when you consider that it was the April edition of Car and Driver 46 years ago that is credited with launching the predecessor to the 3 series in North America.

"Turn Your Hymnals to 2002" was so chalked full of exuberant praise for the 2002 that BMW itself points to this definitive 1968 article as being a turning point for the brand. Automotive journalistic pieces such as this helped engrave "handles like a BMW" into the collective motoring consciousness.

Car and Driver has consistently sung the praises of the BMW 3-series ever since.

So it is not without some moment that the same magazine on the 46th anniversary of this famous car-piece has taken a massive dump on the current model's handling - calling it numb and uncommunicative - and thus striking at the core value of what the 3 (and now 4) series is supposed to be all about.

The outgoing M3 was the undisputed champ of every comparison and test it was thrown into. Not only do the new M3/4 have big shoes to fill, now that BMW has apparently gone all Lexus and Lincoln on the 3/4 series, it must preserve the brand's image as maker of ultimate driving machines.
Strangely enough, the review by C&D seems to go against what other respected magazines say about the 435i's handling and steering...
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      03-01-2014, 02:39 PM   #14
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Strangely enough, the review by C&D seems to go against what other respected magazines say about the 435i's handling and steering...
And they picked the Audi for the win. Hmmmm, surprising.

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      03-01-2014, 02:51 PM   #15
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Strangely enough, the review by C&D seems to go against what other respected magazines say about the 435i's handling and steering...
You're right. C & D seem to be out on left field here. I can't understand German, but could definitely see enough that no way is the 435 the weak sauce handler that C & D is making it out to be. Rather than shaking my faith in BMW, I am having series misgivings about my previously favorite car mag. I agree, were they actually driving the same car?

Hopefully the new M4 will be so undeniably good that even hackneyed hatchet journalism won't be able to dent it.
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      03-01-2014, 02:51 PM   #16
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Even in this lukewarm review by Chris Harris, he sums up the 435i this way:

"...there really is a good performance car, one that keep BMW well ahead of it's German rivals in this particular sector..."

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      03-01-2014, 03:40 PM   #17
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As for the fear that the M3/4 will potentially need it's handling sorted after launch ( ie competition pack M5) and has gone soft- Zero chance! You cannot compare the two cars at all. The F10 M5 is a very fast luxury cruiser. BMW M can only work with the base car they are given and the 5 series is a very large heavy car. F10 M5 weighs almost 2 tonnes- there is only so much it can do with the constraints of the base car and crucially customers who buy an M5 expect it to handle well ' for such a large car'.
M3 customers demand more in this regard- the M3 must handle brilliantly, it must have excellent response from the engine and it must feel great and exciting to drive.
This is the core of BMW, the essence that their brand image for great handling cars has been built on over decades. A poor M3 would be an absolute disaster for BMW- this is their sportiest model.
BMW have said themselves that more effort and resources go into an M3 than any of their other cars for this reason. Last sub 1500kg car built by M was the 1 M coupe and that certainly didn't disappoint.

I genuinely have no fears over this car at all- I am preparing myself to be amazed in July when I pick mine up, nothing less than this will do and BMW M know this because we are M3 drivers and expect it.
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      03-01-2014, 03:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
You're right. C & D seem to be out on left field here. I can't understand German, but could definitely see enough that no way is the 435 the weak sauce handler that C & D is making it out to be. Rather than shaking my faith in BMW, I am having series misgivings about my previously favorite car mag. I agree, were they actually driving the same car?

Hopefully the new M4 will be so undeniably good that even hackneyed hatchet journalism won't be able to dent it.
It's not just C&D. The 4-Series just came out but there have been plenty reviews both pros and cons for the 3-series which is basically the same car. Examples:

Motor Trend - H2H Against S4. BMW lost for reasons similar to what C&D said.

Motor Trend - H2H Against MB350 and ATS 3.6. Caddy wins due to more fun to drive, firmer ride and handling, etc.. similar to what C&D said.

Road & Track - Against Lexus IS, Caddy & Infiniti. Lexus wins. Here's their comment on the Bimmer:

"Sadly, it's not enough. The 335i's wants, compared with both past BMWs and the winner of this test, are stacked a little too deep. This is a hell of a car. But we had more fun with, and ultimately wanted to spend more time in, something else."

Sound familiar? Historically, the 3-Series won almost all comparison tests done by the big 3 (C&D, R&T, MT). That is, until the F3x came along and started losing. It's not clear cut as every Tom, Dick and Mary are doing car review these days, but the message is pretty consistent.

On the bright side, with the F8x being developed with the spirit of the E46 M3 in mind, I am hopeful that the F8x bucks recent trend of softer BMW's. If I buy BMW again, it will be the M3/4 on that hope.
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      03-01-2014, 03:59 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
It's not just C&D. The 4-Series just came out but there have been plenty reviews both pros and cons for the 3-series which is basically the same car. Examples:

Motor Trend - H2H Against S4. BMW lost for reasons similar to what C&D said.

Motor Trend - H2H Against MB350 and ATS 3.6. Caddy wins due to more fun to drive, firmer ride and handling, etc.. similar to what C&D said.

Road & Track - Against Lexus IS, Caddy & Infiniti. Lexus wins. Here's their comment on the Bimmer:

"Sadly, it's not enough. The 335i's wants, compared with both past BMWs and the winner of this test, are stacked a little too deep. This is a hell of a car. But we had more fun with, and ultimately wanted to spend more time in, something else."

Sound familiar? Historically, the 3-Series won almost all comparison tests done by the big 3 (C&D, R&T, MT). That is, until the F3x came along and started losing. It's not clear cut as every Tom, Dick and Mary are doing car review these days, but the message is pretty consistent.

On the bright side, with the F8x being developed with the spirit of the E46 M3 in mind, I am hopeful that the F8x bucks recent trend of softer BMW's. If I buy BMW again, it will be the M3/4 on that hope.
Bold underlined part in your post doesn't make sense when taking into account the European reviews that say the opposite of the US media... Thus, the message is pretty inconsistent!

Possibly US suspension setup differs from the European?
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      03-01-2014, 04:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss134 View Post
As for the fear that the M3/4 will potentially need it's handling sorted after launch ( ie competition pack M5) and has gone soft- Zero chance! You cannot compare the two cars at all. The F10 M5 is a very fast luxury cruiser. BMW M can only work with the base car they are given and the 5 series is a very large heavy car. F10 M5 weighs almost 2 tonnes- there is only so much it can do with the constraints of the base car and crucially customers who buy an M5 expect it to handle well ' for such a large car'.
M3 customers demand more in this regard- the M3 must handle brilliantly, it must have excellent response from the engine and it must feel great and exciting to drive.
This is the core of BMW, the essence that their brand image for great handling cars has been built on over decades. A poor M3 would be an absolute disaster for BMW- this is their sportiest model.
BMW have said themselves that more effort and resources go into an M3 than any of their other cars for this reason. Last sub 1500kg car built by M was the 1 M coupe and that certainly didn't disappoint.

I genuinely have no fears over this car at all- I am preparing myself to be amazed in July when I pick mine up, nothing less than this will do and BMW M know this because we are M3 drivers and expect it.
Very well said!

I have no doubts that M3/M4 won't disappoint. The only two things that make me wait for real world reviews by respected media and eventually by myself is:

a) The new steering (I did not like the steering of the 2014 Boxster S that I had a test drive with here);
b) The size (in the sense that if I would feel comfortable with a car this size; I felt my old E90 330i was bigger than I wanted it to be and I really love the size of the 1M).

That's about it, the rest of everything regarding the F80 M3 is made to win.

Afterall, it might be one of the last cars we can buy new with a real manual option combined with an inline six at the front and traction at the rear plus the most sophisticated diferential of its time.

I really hope it will give the same visceral connection so typical of a BMW M like Z3 and Z4 Coupes, E46 M3 and lately the 1M offered. That is the real reason which makes me choose a BMW over others.

Last edited by ozinaldo; 03-01-2014 at 04:52 PM..
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      03-01-2014, 06:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss134
M Sport cars just have a stiffer suspension and some cosmetics to look sporty- they compete against Audis respective 'S Line' models (sporty body kit, wheels but same engine as standard A4/5 etc)

BMW have said themselves that their new ' M Performance' models are to compete with Audis S cars. M135i, M235i etc with more to come.

As for the fear that the M3/4 will potentially need it's handling sorted after launch ( ie competition pack M5) and has gone soft- Zero chance! You cannot compare the two cars at all. The F10 M5 is a very fast luxury cruiser. BMW M can only work with the base car they are given and the 5 series is a very large heavy car. F10 M5 weighs almost 2 tonnes- there is only so much it can do with the constraints of the base car and crucially customers who buy an M5 expect it to handle well ' for such a large car'.
M3 customers demand more in this regard- the M3 must handle brilliantly, it must have excellent response from the engine and it must feel great and exciting to drive.
This is the core of BMW, the essence that their brand image for great handling cars has been built on over decades. A poor M3 would be an absolute disaster for BMW- this is their sportiest model.
BMW have said themselves that more effort and resources go into an M3 than any of their other cars for this reason. Last sub 1500kg car built by M was the 1 M coupe and that certainly didn't disappoint.

I genuinely have no fears over this car at all- I am preparing myself to be amazed in July when I pick mine up, nothing less than this will do and BMW M know this because we are M3 drivers and expect it.
I got little teary eyed reading this. Right On!! I feel the same way all hail the newborn King of Bavaria!
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      03-01-2014, 06:37 PM   #22
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Some interesting points here. Someone mentioned the elephant in the room (underwhelming BMW's). Now, I've only ever owned M cars. I've tested plenty, have known lots of friends with bimmers. I agree that BMW seems to have gotten a bit away from its roots, and is catering to a larger, much more vanilla audience. Softer, hypermiler, stylish. As an aside, if I think back to the 2002 or E30, I never thought BMW was the prettiest, most stylish car. But I liked them, a lot. They had their own distinctive look. A sort of blend of luxury and spartan usefulness, interior and exterior. Since when did the bimmers look so curvy, wooshy, and pretty (not that I'm complaining about that). But it still speaks to a car more mass marketed. Once upon a time, I test drove a non m-sport or whatever package was available at the time E90 335i (07 I think...) and thought to myself, "wow, this is terrible compared to my (E46) M3", and skipped that whole generation. Now, granted, the E9X M3, which I have driven, was completely different, but I drove it in 2011. The funny thing is, I know a guy at work, who thinks his E93 328i is "The Ultimate Driving Machine". I think if he drove an E46 M3, he'd think its terrible.

In any case, the car magazines seem to be giving BMW mixed and inconsistent reviews. Remember when Car and Driver named the E36 the best handling car, cost no object? BMW of yesteryear have never mixed or inconsistent. Words more like benchmark or standard seemed to be thrown around more. But I don't think its a lack of BMW quality or prowess. It's just that everybody else has caught up a lot, and BMW changed their marketing focus a bit. (Although you could say BMW has lessened the gap between the M3 and the 911, only to have Porsche widen it back a bit). But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Stray from your core values that made you great, and you become more ordinary. Dilution of the brand means less exclusivity.

Or can you have it all? The only way I see that happening is for BMW to continue its trend toward more mainstream luxury, but DONT SCREW UP the enthusiast M cars. Hold to the principle of race car first, luxury car second. I feel BMW took a HUGE risk coming out with an M4. There's so much brand equity in the name M3. That is why I'm confident, hopeful, and praying that the M3 and M4 are very special cars. Not in the realm of mixed or inconsistent. I know the M3/M4 are nit going to be the BEST at anything. But I'm hoping it will be the second best at everything.

Ok I'm gonna try not to trip as I get off my soap box here...



PS I recently test drove an M235, and was pleasantly surprised. I could drive this car
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