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      06-07-2014, 04:54 PM   #1
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Why Porsche?

Went to a BMW dealer to test "sit" new M3/4. Overall they are very nice cars, great improvements in terms of proportion of car and interior quality. But after the visit of another Porsche dealer, just couldn't resist 911. I wonder why? I had M5 as my daily drive since October 2012, and upgraded to a fully loaded and individually optioned 14 M5 early this year(less than 3000Km). Why does Porsche become so attractive to M car owners?
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      06-07-2014, 05:14 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodandEvil View Post
Went to a BMW dealer to test "sit" new M3/4. Overall they are very nice cars, great improvements in terms of proportion of car and interior quality. But after the visit of another Porsche dealer, just couldn't resist 911. I wonder why? I had M5 as my daily drive since October 2012, and upgraded to a fully loaded and individually optioned 14 M5 early this year(less than 3000Km). Why does Porsche become so attractive to M car owners?
To me the draw of Porsche is:
1) Exclusivity. It pains me to drive a $120k car that looks a normal middle manager's 5 series or worse the flight attendant's 3 series. You have less of this issue with Porsche.
2) They do a nice job of honing the emotional experience - feel, sound, etc.
3) The 911 holds its value very well

To me the turn off of Porsche is:
1) They are also now selling cars to flight attendants, etc. So the exclusivity is eroding. Especially when Boxster is offered on a $299 lease.
2) They really sell you a totally stripped down car with no tech. Cheaper quality leather than BMW M, less in-car technology than a Ford or KIA. No surround cameras, no apps integration, and forget about HUD.
3) There is no doubt you are paying for the badge not for the product. Many cars will outperform a Porsche for less money. This just doesn't sit well with me. I don't buy Armani t-shirts because I don't waste money. I like to pay for quality not branding. There is one sole exception - the 911 Turbo S which is probably the most sensible buy in the Porsche line-up as your closest competition is a Veyron or a Lamborghini.
4) Many Porsche's depreciate like bricks - Panamera Turbo/S, Cayenne GTS/Turbo. Which i think reflects their over-pricing.

I'm probably buying a 911 once my home is completed with a 2 car garage. But I can tell you if I only owned one car, it would be a BMW or a Mercedes. There is no fucking way I would drop my m5 for a 911 C2S. The M5 is just a better car. The 911 is better for showing off and for occasional driving in mountains.
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      06-07-2014, 05:41 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth.pilot
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodandEvil View Post
Went to a BMW dealer to test "sit" new M3/4. Overall they are very nice cars, great improvements in terms of proportion of car and interior quality. But after the visit of another Porsche dealer, just couldn't resist 911. I wonder why? I had M5 as my daily drive since October 2012, and upgraded to a fully loaded and individually optioned 14 M5 early this year(less than 3000Km). Why does Porsche become so attractive to M car owners?
To me the draw of Porsche is:
1) Exclusivity. It pains me to drive a $120k car that looks a normal middle manager's 5 series or worse the flight attendant's 3 series. You have less of this issue with Porsche.
2) They do a nice job of honing the emotional experience - feel, sound, etc.
3) The 911 holds its value very well

To me the turn off of Porsche is:
1) They are also now selling cars to flight attendants, etc. So the exclusivity is eroding. Especially when Boxster is offered on a $299 lease.
2) They really sell you a totally stripped down car with no tech. Cheaper quality leather than BMW M, less in-car technology than a Ford or KIA. No surround cameras, no apps integration, and forget about HUD.
3) There is no doubt you are paying for the badge not for the product. Many cars will outperform a Porsche for less money. This just doesn't sit well with me. I don't buy Armani t-shirts because I don't waste money. I like to pay for quality not branding. There is one sole exception - the 911 Turbo S which is probably the most sensible buy in the Porsche line-up as your closest competition is a Veyron or a Lamborghini.
4) Many Porsche's depreciate like bricks - Panamera Turbo/S, Cayenne GTS/Turbo. Which i think reflects their over-pricing.

I'm probably buying a 911 once my home is completed with a 2 car garage. But I can tell you if I only owned one car, it would be a BMW or a Mercedes. There is no fucking way I would drop my m5 for a 911 C2S. The M5 is just a better car. The 911 is better for showing off and for occasional driving in mountains.
Thanks a lot, stealth.pilot. I totally agree with you, and your response really helps to calm down my inner spirit. I guess I will just wait for another year or two, and then move to 911 C2S with only necessary options.
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      06-07-2014, 05:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
To me the draw of Porsche is:
1) Exclusivity. It pains me to drive a $120k car that looks a normal middle manager's 5 series or worse the flight attendant's 3 series. You have less of this issue with Porsche.
2) They do a nice job of honing the emotional experience - feel, sound, etc.
3) The 911 holds its value very well

To me the turn off of Porsche is:
1) They are also now selling cars to flight attendants, etc. So the exclusivity is eroding. Especially when Boxster is offered on a $299 lease.
2) They really sell you a totally stripped down car with no tech. Cheaper quality leather than BMW M, less in-car technology than a Ford or KIA. No surround cameras, no apps integration, and forget about HUD.
3) There is no doubt you are paying for the badge not for the product. Many cars will outperform a Porsche for less money. This just doesn't sit well with me. I don't buy Armani t-shirts because I don't waste money. I like to pay for quality not branding. There is one sole exception - the 911 Turbo S which is probably the most sensible buy in the Porsche line-up as your closest competition is a Veyron or a Lamborghini.
4) Many Porsche's depreciate like bricks - Panamera Turbo/S, Cayenne GTS/Turbo. Which i think reflects their over-pricing.

I'm probably buying a 911 once my home is completed with a 2 car garage. But I can tell you if I only owned one car, it would be a BMW or a Mercedes. There is no fucking way I would drop my m5 for a 911 C2S. The M5 is just a better car. The 911 is better for showing off and for occasional driving in mountains.
The BMW //M Models depreciate like Bricks Also. Never heard of Porsche offering a $299/Lease. Must have a significant down Payment. Any High end P-Car ($150-200K) Is going to have shit resale. Virtually the same thing for all High end cars.

P-Cars have never been about the Tech. They will never be. They are all about the drive.

Last edited by krisnetaji; 06-07-2014 at 06:16 PM..
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      06-07-2014, 06:26 PM   #5
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As it so happened, I sat in an F80 M3 and an F82 M4 today too. The F80 M3 had the 6MT as well. It has been a few months since I sat in both cars at the autoshows from this past winter. My first impressions were that "boy these are small cars." I've sat in Porsches also. First I think a Porsche without the Full Leather isn't doing the car any service, then again neither is a $70k+ dollar M3/M4.

I agree with all of Stealth's points. As I see it the only P-car's worth the money you pay is the 911 GT3 or the Cayman/Boxster GTS. Those cars in my opinion are worth every penny. A base 911 Carrera (not even an S) will still be a great sports car and still rival many more track and performance focused cars. I personally feel that all of these cars nowadays are well overpriced. From an Audi RS7 to a Merc E63 even to a BMW M5 and especially the M6 and M6 Gran Coupe, the 911 is no different. I say either find a way to get a brand new car at least 15% off of MSRP or get a used one in 1 or 2 years for about 30% off of MSRP. These cars today just are not worth Full MSRP. The only car I would not mind paying MSRP for is the 991 GT3, because I know that car will hold value very very very well.
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      06-07-2014, 06:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
To me the draw of Porsche is:
1) Exclusivity. It pains me to drive a $120k car that looks a normal middle manager's 5 series or worse the flight attendant's 3 series. You have less of this issue with Porsche.
2) They do a nice job of honing the emotional experience - feel, sound, etc.
3) The 911 holds its value very well

To me the turn off of Porsche is:
1) They are also now selling cars to flight attendants, etc. So the exclusivity is eroding. Especially when Boxster is offered on a $299 lease.
2) They really sell you a totally stripped down car with no tech. Cheaper quality leather than BMW M, less in-car technology than a Ford or KIA. No surround cameras, no apps integration, and forget about HUD.
3) There is no doubt you are paying for the badge not for the product. Many cars will outperform a Porsche for less money. This just doesn't sit well with me. I don't buy Armani t-shirts because I don't waste money. I like to pay for quality not branding. There is one sole exception - the 911 Turbo S which is probably the most sensible buy in the Porsche line-up as your closest competition is a Veyron or a Lamborghini.
4) Many Porsche's depreciate like bricks - Panamera Turbo/S, Cayenne GTS/Turbo. Which i think reflects their over-pricing.

I'm probably buying a 911 once my home is completed with a 2 car garage. But I can tell you if I only owned one car, it would be a BMW or a Mercedes. There is no fucking way I would drop my m5 for a 911 C2S. The M5 is just a better car. The 911 is better for showing off and for occasional driving in mountains.
well said
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      06-07-2014, 06:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
I personally feel that all of these cars nowadays are well overpriced. From an Audi RS7 to a Merc E63 even to a BMW M5 and especially the M6 and M6 Gran Coupe, the 911 is no different. I say either find a way to get a brand new car at least 15% off of MSRP or get a used one in 1 or 2 years for about 30% off of MSRP. These cars today just are not worth Full MSRP.
You are right and that's what I did to get my car 20K (about 17%) off MSRP
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      06-07-2014, 07:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5
As it so happened, I sat in an F80 M3 and an F82 M4 today too. The F80 M3 had the 6MT as well. It has been a few months since I sat in both cars at the autoshows from this past winter. My first impressions were that "boy these are small cars." I've sat in Porsches also. First I think a Porsche without the Full Leather isn't doing the car any service, then again neither is a $70k+ dollar M3/M4.

I agree with all of Stealth's points. As I see it the only P-car's worth the money you pay is the 911 GT3 or the Cayman/Boxster GTS. Those cars in my opinion are worth every penny. A base 911 Carrera (not even an S) will still be a great sports car and still rival many more track and performance focused cars. I personally feel that all of these cars nowadays are well overpriced. From an Audi RS7 to a Merc E63 even to a BMW M5 and especially the M6 and M6 Gran Coupe, the 911 is no different. I say either find a way to get a brand new car at least 15% off of MSRP or get a used one in 1 or 2 years for about 30% off of MSRP. These cars today just are not worth Full MSRP. The only car I would not mind paying MSRP for is the 991 GT3, because I know that car will hold value very very very well.
911 has always been the bench mark for sport car, and I believe 997 C2S still holds that position well. For Gt 3 and Gt 3 RS(dealer begins to take deposit for that car), I am deeply concerned with the reliability of engine. Porsche probably pushes it too hard this time. As the "collector car" or "final edition high performance NA sport car", I really want to keep this car forever!
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      06-07-2014, 07:30 PM   #9
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This is why.

Style and panache. It's easy to see that car is better looking than my M5 even though I got more for the money with the M5 and generally better technology. From what I can tell by reading the forums, the BMW has better cameras for sure and the sunroof is better as is the keyless entry system and numerous other complaints I have been reading on rennlist and 6speedonline. Still doesn't make me want the car any less, just might make me take my time buying one though.
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      06-07-2014, 07:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
To me the draw of Porsche is:
1) Exclusivity. It pains me to drive a $120k car that looks a normal middle manager's 5 series or worse the flight attendant's 3 series. You have less of this issue with Porsche.
2) They do a nice job of honing the emotional experience - feel, sound, etc.
3) The 911 holds its value very well

To me the turn off of Porsche is:
1) They are also now selling cars to flight attendants, etc. So the exclusivity is eroding. Especially when Boxster is offered on a $299 lease.
2) They really sell you a totally stripped down car with no tech. Cheaper quality leather than BMW M, less in-car technology than a Ford or KIA. No surround cameras, no apps integration, and forget about HUD.
3) There is no doubt you are paying for the badge not for the product. Many cars will outperform a Porsche for less money. This just doesn't sit well with me. I don't buy Armani t-shirts because I don't waste money. I like to pay for quality not branding. There is one sole exception - the 911 Turbo S which is probably the most sensible buy in the Porsche line-up as your closest competition is a Veyron or a Lamborghini.
4) Many Porsche's depreciate like bricks - Panamera Turbo/S, Cayenne GTS/Turbo. Which i think reflects their over-pricing.

I'm probably buying a 911 once my home is completed with a 2 car garage. But I can tell you if I only owned one car, it would be a BMW or a Mercedes. There is no fucking way I would drop my m5 for a 911 C2S. The M5 is just a better car. The 911 is better for showing off and for occasional driving in mountains.
Enjoyed reading this bro
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      06-07-2014, 08:03 PM   #11
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Porsche is the next logical step for BMW, MB, and Audi owners moving up in your world. I got 99 problems but a...
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      06-07-2014, 09:13 PM   #12
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Totally agree with Stealth that many P cars are way overpriced for what they deliver. Many consider P to be the next step up from M cars. I felt that way too, but din think the C2S was special enough for me compared to my prev E92 M3. For so much more money, i was expecting a lot more than what it's offering. Only a small no. of P cars are special like the 2 mentioned cars above: GT3 and TT, prob the Cayman GTS too. I would strongly recommend pple getting a good lightly used 911 of any variant!!!
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      06-07-2014, 10:47 PM   #13
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I just sold my M3 for a Cayman S. I think it's an awesome car for $86k. Much much better than my M3, it took 3 test drives for me to realize it.

I wanted to buy a 911 but I really wanted a mid engine car.
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      06-07-2014, 11:40 PM   #14
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I read somewhere Porsche is the world's top auto company when it comes to profit margin per car, with some speculating they make over 10k usd per car on the Cayenne series.
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      06-08-2014, 12:03 AM   #15
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Own one, and drive it to the capacity it was designed for. After that tell me about the M5. You can't, because the M5 and 911 are in two different hemispheres. People, stop comparing them, they do different things and serve different purposes. I have owned 4 M cars and 1 Porsche... I currently have an F10 M5 and a 991S and that is truly the best of both worlds. It all depends on what you're looking to get out of a car. The M5 is a heavy but fast car. For a heavy car it handles well, but when your drive P car you see where the handling capabilities shine through. You are also more in unison with the car, a more visceral feel. However IMO if you buy a 991 or cayman and plan on never taking it to the track, save your money and buy something else. I consider those people posers. You will never know the true potential of that car until you get it on a track.

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      06-08-2014, 01:50 AM   #16
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i love the way 911s look. I think they are really nice cars, and offer things beyond performance. its for people with money, who dont care about getting the best performance for the money. They are fast, and very well built cars. they hold good value and dont get dated fast like some cars.

For someone who can really only afford to have one nice car, the 911 just doesn't do enough for me. I also am not in love with the way 6 cylinders sound. and a 911 is one of my favorite sounding 6 cylinders. After owning a V8 M3 its becoming hard to want 6 cylinders cars.
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      06-08-2014, 01:55 AM   #17
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When I had my boxter back in 99 it was a great car to me. We put approximately 30k on the clock b4 a 18 wheeler crashed into my wife. The car was totalled and guess what. . We got all our money back from the bank. It was like driving the car for free. As far as the driving experience it was fun and had it's own nice tone to it. I will buy one at some point but still having fun driving my m. I disagree w some of the guys views here if you have never owned one but these p cars are two very different ones and to me there is no comparison. Totally diff drive experience. Just like from boxter- 911-c4-tt. All diff.
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      06-08-2014, 02:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodandEvil View Post
Went to a BMW dealer to test "sit" new M3/4.
Although I acknowledge that the feel of sitting in a car is important to most of us (otherwise why would we buy German built cars), you need to covert your test 'sit' into a test 'drive' and then come back and share your thoughts (especially when it comes to M4 vs. P-car comparison).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodandEvil View Post
Why does Porsche become so attractive to M car owners?
Putting aside other factors (such as these are both German cars) to avoid comparisons to other manufacturers, P-cars may lack the tech of current gen M-cars, however, the money has been spent on honing the driving experience (compare Macan to Q5, Cayenne to Touareg - these are not simply re-badged cars). Is that not the very reason, i.e. the way they drive, that many of us were drawn to buy M-cars over non-M BMWs, etc.?

Both are mass produced cars, so both will suffer from associated quality issues.

If comparing M3/4/5 to 991 (which seems to be quite popular on this forum), I will say this (based on my very limited experience), that P-cars are not as well rounded as M-cars - less tech, not as practical, not as refined (good for providing a more visceral experience, not so good for long distant trips, etc.). Both aim to be drivers cars, P-cars, are just more focused in that one respect and, hence, come with inherent compromises. I personally would not 'cross-shop' an M5 and a 911; they are both brilliant cars for differing reasons. I would consider a Panamera over an M5, but for many reasons (one of them being that M5 is relatively discrete), I would still buy the M5. I would not, however, buy a Z4 over a Boxster, an M4 over a Cayman (accepting that 981 is a 2-seat car) or an M6 over 911.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
As I see it the only P-car's worth the money you pay is the 911 GT3 or the Cayman/Boxster GTS. Those cars in my opinion are worth every penny.
Only advantage (IMHO) that Cayman GTS has over Cayman S (to which you can add PASM, PTV, etc.) is the PASM removing sport suspension option (assuming one wants are more hardcore driving experience). There are aesthetic differences (not suggesting these don't matter), but, this is not a car with a limited production run such as that of the 911 GT3/2s, RS, hence, GTS will depreciate more than a potential limited production Cayman GT4, just not clear yet if that will be on par with a fully optioned Cayman S (I would like to think not).

Having said this, a 981 GT4 or 991 GT3 should really be compared to potential successor to M3 CLS/GTS - the worrying thing being that the 981 GTS with sports suspension would seem to be a comparable driving experience to CLS/GTS, which, IMO, is the reason it's a bargain (I don't believe the 981 GTS residuals values will out perform those of M3 CLS/GTS).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
These cars today just are not worth Full MSRP. The only car I would not mind paying MSRP for is the 991 GT3, because I know that car will hold value very very very well.
Agreed on GT3 (and similar cars where supply trails demand), all other cars are not worth full MSRP. The challenge is working out what is a fair discount.
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      06-08-2014, 03:01 AM   #19
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I think what stealth said is pretty much on point
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      06-08-2014, 10:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aculeg87 View Post
Own one, and drive it to the capacity it was designed for. After that tell me about the M5. You can't, because the M5 and 911 are in two different hemispheres. People, stop comparing them, they do different things and serve different purposes. I have owned 4 M cars and 1 Porsche... I currently have an F10 M5 and a 991S and that is truly the best of both worlds. It all depends on what you're looking to get out of a car. The M5 is a heavy but fast car. For a heavy car it handles well, but when your drive P car you see where the handling capabilities shine through. You are also more in unison with the car, a more visceral feel. However IMO if you buy a 991 or cayman and plan on never taking it to the track, save your money and buy something else. I consider those people posers. You will never know the true potential of that car until you get it on a track.
100%!!!! I don't understand why people try to turn the M5 into a sports car, track car, etc... IT'S A 4-DR SEDAN PEOPLE! LOL.

But to each his own I guess.
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      06-08-2014, 11:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
To me the draw of Porsche is:
1) Exclusivity. It pains me to drive a $120k car that looks a normal middle manager's 5 series or worse the flight attendant's 3 series. You have less of this issue with Porsche.
2) They do a nice job of honing the emotional experience - feel, sound, etc.
3) The 911 holds its value very well

To me the turn off of Porsche is:
1) They are also now selling cars to flight attendants, etc. So the exclusivity is eroding. Especially when Boxster is offered on a $299 lease.
2) They really sell you a totally stripped down car with no tech. Cheaper quality leather than BMW M, less in-car technology than a Ford or KIA. No surround cameras, no apps integration, and forget about HUD.
3) There is no doubt you are paying for the badge not for the product. Many cars will outperform a Porsche for less money. This just doesn't sit well with me. I don't buy Armani t-shirts because I don't waste money. I like to pay for quality not branding. There is one sole exception - the 911 Turbo S which is probably the most sensible buy in the Porsche line-up as your closest competition is a Veyron or a Lamborghini.
4) Many Porsche's depreciate like bricks - Panamera Turbo/S, Cayenne GTS/Turbo. Which i think reflects their over-pricing.

I'm probably buying a 911 once my home is completed with a 2 car garage. But I can tell you if I only owned one car, it would be a BMW or a Mercedes. There is no fucking way I would drop my m5 for a 911 C2S. The M5 is just a better car. The 911 is better for showing off and for occasional driving in mountains.
It's just because you guys down there on the water like boats...
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      06-08-2014, 11:22 AM   #22
stealth.pilot
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Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
To me the draw of Porsche is:
1) Exclusivity. It pains me to drive a $120k car that looks a normal middle manager's 5 series or worse the flight attendant's 3 series. You have less of this issue with Porsche.
2) They do a nice job of honing the emotional experience - feel, sound, etc.
3) The 911 holds its value very well

To me the turn off of Porsche is:
1) They are also now selling cars to flight attendants, etc. So the exclusivity is eroding. Especially when Boxster is offered on a $299 lease.
2) They really sell you a totally stripped down car with no tech. Cheaper quality leather than BMW M, less in-car technology than a Ford or KIA. No surround cameras, no apps integration, and forget about HUD.
3) There is no doubt you are paying for the badge not for the product. Many cars will outperform a Porsche for less money. This just doesn't sit well with me. I don't buy Armani t-shirts because I don't waste money. I like to pay for quality not branding. There is one sole exception - the 911 Turbo S which is probably the most sensible buy in the Porsche line-up as your closest competition is a Veyron or a Lamborghini.
4) Many Porsche's depreciate like bricks - Panamera Turbo/S, Cayenne GTS/Turbo. Which i think reflects their over-pricing.

I'm probably buying a 911 once my home is completed with a 2 car garage. But I can tell you if I only owned one car, it would be a BMW or a Mercedes. There is no fucking way I would drop my m5 for a 911 C2S. The M5 is just a better car. The 911 is better for showing off and for occasional driving in mountains.
It's just because you guys down there on the water like boats...
Well I would admit - I'd rather drive a Bentley Continental GT Speed than a Ferrari 458!

I like comfort.
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