Track Review (long one)

[gthal]

Originally Posted by jbraslins

I think I am done taking my DD to track for a while. Plan is to build Spec E46 this winter.

I'm thinking I may do the same thing. As much as I love the dual purpose car (and the M4 is very well suited for it), it does beat the crap out of the car and involves compromises (messing with brakes, tires, camber, etc, etc).

I'm thinking I will find myself an E36, E46 or even an E92 and turn it into a dedicated track car... cage, fire suppression, etc... I miss my last E36. There is something nice about not worrying about an "off track" event in a less expensive car with a cage vs. a very expensive daily driver

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gthal

I'm thinking I may do the same thing. As much as I love the dual purpose car (and the M4 is very well suited for it), it does beat the crap out of the car and involves compromises (messing with brakes, tires, camber, etc, etc).

I'm thinking I will find myself an E36, E46 or even an E92 and turn it into a dedicated track car... cage, fire suppression, etc... I miss my last E36. There is something nice about not worrying about an "off track" event in a less expensive car with a cage vs. a very expensive daily driver

Interesting.

If I were to have dedicated track car, I wonder if I would have any need for the M4.

There is no way to exploit the performance potential of that car on public roads. You barely probe the throttle and you are already flying way above speed limits. The chassis is so well planted, it is not possible to make it dance without being 2 to 3 times the speed limit in curves or on-ramps. The M4 simply cannot opens it lungs or stretch its legs on public roads. The loaded 428 GC that the dealer lent me while I was waiting for my car to get from ED would be plenty sufficient for the DD IMO (or maybe a 435 GC).

[gthal]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Interesting.

If I were to have dedicated track car, I wonder if I would have any need for the M4.

There is no way to exploit the performance potential of that car on public roads. You barely probe the throttle and you are already flying way above speed limits. The chassis is so well planted, it is not possible to make it dance without being 2 to 3 times the speed limit in curves or on-ramps. The M4 simply cannot opens it lungs or stretch its legs on public roads. The loaded 428 GC that the dealer lent me while I was waiting for my car to get from ED would be plenty sufficient for the DD IMO (or maybe a 435 GC).

This is exactly why I also struggle with a dedicated track car.

The M4 is a great track car and a great DD but I'm always anxious taking these expensive street cars on the track. One reason why I loved the E36 M3 was because my investment was $25,000 for a fully prepped car that was safer. I run into a wall and I'm likely OK and my lost investment is a lot less.

The M4 is still a very fun street car but, as you correctly state, you cannot get close to the limits of the car on the street.

I'll likely NOT go the route of a dedicated track car unless I can up my time on the track to north of 15 days on a consistent basis. It's something I have been considering as I really am having a hard time getting my head wrapped around beating my M4 to death with heavy track usage... and the odds of a likely bad day increase with seat time

[jbraslins]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

If I were to have dedicated track car, I wonder if I would have any need for the M4.

Originally Posted by gthal

This is exactly why I also struggle with a dedicated track car.

I already been wondering what it will be like to trade in F80 M3 for a F250 or an Expedition so I can tow E46 to the track.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by jbraslins

I already been wondering what it will be like to trade in F80 M3 for a F250 or an Expedition so I can tow E46 to the track.

I would keep my M4 if I ever did go this route because it is so damn fun as a daily car. I would need to poke my eyes out with a rusty spoon if I had to drive a practical car/truck every day. Did that last year and won't ever do it again

[FTS]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Interesting.

If I were to have dedicated track car, I wonder if I would have any need for the M4.

There is no way to exploit the performance potential of that car on public roads. You barely probe the throttle and you are already flying way above speed limits. The chassis is so well planted, it is not possible to make it dance without being 2 to 3 times the speed limit in curves or on-ramps. The M4 simply cannot opens it lungs or stretch its legs on public roads. The loaded 428 GC that the dealer lent me while I was waiting for my car to get from ED would be plenty sufficient for the DD IMO (or maybe a 435 GC).

+1

We all had similar thoughts at some point or another. For me, the cost equation is so negative with a dedicated track car that the thought of it was laughable.

Once I go this route I would have continually sunk money into that type of car and there is no turning back, I would find myself keep investing into it to make it faster, safer, more adjustable. Not to mention the trailer and tower. Then suddenly I would found that I spent enough money that I could have bought a Cup car. If I had bought a cup car, it would have been hugely fun, but then I would have to rebuilt engine and tranny every 100-110 hours, rebuild the tub every 3 years or so, eventually triple the costs in 3-4 years, not to mention other consumables. In the mean time, I would have had another car/truck to maintain of course. For what? DE?

Totaling a dedicated car is expensive as a street car, and actually it can be even more expensive as insurance won't cover all the sweat put into it, which is very considerable of course.

If the purpose is to go racing, of course it makes some sense. Then again, racing for what? $10 trophy? Obviously everyone gets tickled differently, so I learned not to judge anyone for their choices, but for drivers like me who just wants to have a little fun, while maintaining a normal (at least at some level) family life and a semi-comfortable retirement while working for a salary, a race car or a dedicated track car just does not make any sense.

I am thankful I can afford cars like the F8x that can serve multiple purposes for me to be happy in my life as a whole

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by FTS

I am thankful I can afford cars like the F8x that can serve multiple purposes for me to be happy in my life as a whole

[M4isKing]

im either going to slowly build my e90 (although would just trade for coupe) into a dedicated track car, or jump into an s2k - cheap fun track car!

but then it all goes out the window if i choose to buy an m4

dual purpose is pretty great but at some point you want to go full balls to the wall, which wouldnt be pretty when a 70k car scrapes a wall

[M4isKing]

Originally Posted by FTS

+1

We all had similar thoughts at some point or another. For me, the cost equation is so negative with a dedicated track car that the thought of it was laughable.

Once I go this route I would have continually sunk money into that type of car and there is no turning back, I would find myself keep investing into it to make it faster, safer, more adjustable. Not to mention the trailer and tower. Then suddenly I would found that I spent enough money that I could have bought a Cup car. If I had bought a cup car, it would have been hugely fun, but then I would have to rebuilt engine and tranny every 100-110 hours, rebuild the tub every 3 years or so, eventually triple the costs in 3-4 years, not to mention other consumables. In the mean time, I would have had another car/truck to maintain of course. For what? DE?

Totaling a dedicated car is expensive as a street car, and actually it can be even more expensive as insurance won't cover all the sweat put into it, which is very considerable of course.

If the purpose is to go racing, of course it makes some sense. Then again, racing for what? $10 trophy? Obviously everyone gets tickled differently, so I learned not to judge anyone for their choices, but for drivers like me who just wants to have a little fun, while maintaining a normal (at least at some level) family life and a semi-comfortable retirement while working for a salary, a race car or a dedicated track car just does not make any sense.

I am thankful I can afford cars like the F8x that can serve multiple purposes for me to be happy in my life as a whole

but one can sell his brembo kit, fancy suspension, exhaust and some other bits for a fully built s2k track car! lol.

oh and no m tax. heck no euro tax lol.

[FTS]

There no doubt you are right, these options/parts are worth quite a bit of money, or more correctly cost quite a bit, worth is a different matter.

I have been down this road couple of times. Once you build something like an S2K, first year to tackle all of the setup and tuning issues, which is fun actually. Then you have a superbly hooked up car and even moderately competitive in TT if you choose to do it. But then the power become insufficient, you look at upgrades and may be do something to the engine. You jump up few classes and the car is moderately reliable. You spent more money, and it is never enough, you soon find yourself with a car that you spent around $50K and it is no longer giving you the joys when you were building, it does not fit into any competition class and you start looking for the next project

For any car build, IMHO, you have to target a racing class first, not a car, regardless if you will go racing or not, then you build to the rules. The reason is simple: what ever you spend on this sport, it has to be resellable to recoup money for the next project. If you build it to a racing class, the car is marketable depending on how good of a job you do. Many people building cars deviate from this rule and it becomes a money pit without any recovery.

Examples: we built two SCCA Solo and Prosolo Evos and STi in early 2000s, recouped 50% of what we invested. We later built two spec Miatas, each bought for $6-7K, spent $4K in each (doing all the work ourselves), sold each for $13K after one year of racing. We built half a dozen stage rally front- and all-wheel drive cars, each sold more than what we invested in it by staying true to rule books and paying attention to all the little details (hundreds of hours of our time not counting in these figures).

I am out of that business now, and just enjoy tracking for the sole purpose enjoyment, and buy cars that need little to no modifications. I don't have the time nor the energy to do what we have done during the last decade.

So, my point and advice is not to discourage anyone, but if you want to do it 'right' do it with a rule book in mind, so when your tastes change or need a new challenge, you have good financing to start with

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FTS

+1

We all had similar thoughts at some point or another. For me, the cost equation is so negative with a dedicated track car that the thought of it was laughable.

Once I go this route I would have continually sunk money into that type of car and there is no turning back, I would find myself keep investing into it to make it faster, safer, more adjustable. Not to mention the trailer and tower. Then suddenly I would found that I spent enough money that I could have bought a Cup car. If I had bought a cup car, it would have been hugely fun, but then I would have to rebuilt engine and tranny every 100-110 hours, rebuild the tub every 3 years or so, eventually triple the costs in 3-4 years, not to mention other consumables. In the mean time, I would have had another car/truck to maintain of course. For what? DE?

Totaling a dedicated car is expensive as a street car, and actually it can be even more expensive as insurance won't cover all the sweat put into it, which is very considerable of course.

If the purpose is to go racing, of course it makes some sense. Then again, racing for what? $10 trophy? Obviously everyone gets tickled differently, so I learned not to judge anyone for their choices, but for drivers like me who just wants to have a little fun, while maintaining a normal (at least at some level) family life and a semi-comfortable retirement while working for a salary, a race car or a dedicated track car just does not make any sense.

I am thankful I can afford cars like the F8x that can serve multiple purposes for me to be happy in my life as a whole

I can so relate to that. Been there done that . Once you start modding, it becomes a dangerous spiral. Once you start going competitive, you want to win .

Originally Posted by FTS

...and just enjoy tracking for the sole purpose enjoyment, and buy cars that need little to no modifications. I don't have the time nor the energy to do what we have done during the last decade.

I really enjoy having a car that I can take mostly stock, daily drive it in comfort, do road trips with the whole family, bring the kids to daycare, go to the lumbar yard with and on top of it all, truly enjoy at the track. This is what an M3/4 is all about for me .

[turbo8765]

Are you guys not getting, or not aware of, hpde insurance?

It definitely increases the per event cost significantly, but is probably worthwhile for most who are tracking a 75k car.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by turbo8765

Are you guys not getting, or not aware of, hpde insurance?

It definitely increases the per event cost significantly, but is probably worthwhile for most who are tracking a 75k car.

Not available in Canada. Sucks for us. I've explored this extensively, talked to US providers, talked to Canadian companies... it isn't available. I would personally be happy to pay for it if it were available and it would solve a big piece of the issue.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by gthal

Not available in Canada. Sucks for us. I've explored this extensively, talked to US providers, talked to Canadian companies... it isn't available. I would personally be happy to pay for it if it were available and it would solve a big piece of the issue.

Yes it is!I am a consultant to them.AMP is on the approved list.


http://www.trackdayinsurance.ca

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

Yes it is!I am a consultant to them.AMP is on the approved list.


http://www.trackdayinsurance.ca

WHAT!!!

I had no idea and I can assure you I looked long and hard!!

This is great... time to investigate further.

Edit: I'm so happy... this is fantastic. Really takes away some of the worry!!

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by gthal

WHAT!!!

I had no idea and I can assure you I looked long and hard!!

This is great... time to investigate further.

Edit: I'm so happy... this is fantastic. Really takes away some of the worry!!

Oh yeah I wouldn't have tracked my M6 without it .

[PrimeBMW]

We all know and understand that every generation of M3/4 can be a great DD and very capable on the track. I have been able to drive my kids to daycare (Recaro baby seats) during the week and do NASA time trials on the weekend with my E92 M3. In stock form some tracks are very enjoyable while other tracks expose some weaknesses. BBK and coilovers I am sure would help……the F80/2 M3/4 may allow a person to wait on these upgrades but would provide for a more enjoyable time at the track.
On the other hand it is a great treat to be able to drive a properly built dedicated track/race car without compromises not to mention the added safety. Once you do you will think the street M3/4 is a sloppy mess. I didn’t believe this till I went back to me street car…..it was a big disappointment.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by jbraslins

I already been wondering what it will be like to trade in F80 M3 for a F250 or an Expedition so I can tow E46 to the track.

Thanks for this post... I had just decided to order up an F80 last week to be a dual purpose HDPE/DD car and you are making me want to back out and get a C5 Z06 to track and 328 to daily

J/K

I looked through my log book and have been at ~6 days for the last few years and it doesn't make sense for me to get dedicated car until I am back up to 15-24 days / year

That said, I have started to get more into karting and I think those outdoor TAG karts are a very interesting alternative to street cars. Could be a good option to look at if you want to give your car a break before going to a track car + tow vehicle combo

[jbraslins]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Thanks for this post... I had just decided to order up an F80 last week to be a dual purpose HDPE/DD car and you are making me want to back out and get a C5 Z06 to track and 328 to daily

J/K

Heh, I was more kidding than being serious. I've done that before, in 2005 I've traded in my 328ci for F150, so I could tow bikes to the track. Next two years I did 14..18 track days a year and it made perfect sense. The moment I dropped down to 5..6, I had to get rid of F150 and get a nicer DD. Having non-sporty DD and not going to track enough is the worst. It's called "regrets all around".

Originally Posted by nicknaz

That said, I have started to get more into karting and I think those outdoor TAG karts are a very interesting alternative to street cars. Could be a good option to look at if you want to give your car a break before going to a track car + tow vehicle combo

Hmmm, i'll have to check those out. Never heard of them.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by jbraslins

Heh, I was more kidding than being serious. I've done that before, in 2005 I've traded in my 328ci for F150, so I could tow bikes to the track. Next two years I did 14..18 track days a year and it made perfect sense. The moment I dropped down to 5..6, I had to get rid of F150 and get a nicer DD. Having non-sporty DD and not going to track enough is the worst. It's called "regrets all around".



Hmmm, i'll have to check those out. Never heard of them.

Here is an example:

http://www.calspeedkarting.com/renta...g-schools.html

80mph in a kart feels all sorts of epic. A good friend has a modded 996 TT but did karting instead. In the kart blown motor cost $100 to fix and a new set of slicks was $60. I think we all consume that much in fuel doing an HPDE

Seems like we went through a similar thought process in 2005.. I was going to convert my street bike to track only and tow with a WRX wagon, but ended up tracking the WRX instead

In all seriousness though, do you think the M3/M4 will be able to hold up to 12-15 HDPEs a year with Carbotech brake pads and "streetable R tires" like Toyo R888 for a few years or am I asking for trouble with that expectation?

[gthal]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

In all seriousness though, do you think the M3/M4 will be able to hold up to 12-15 HDPEs a year with Carbotech brake pads and "streetable R tires" like Toyo R888 for a few years or am I asking for trouble with that expectation?

It will easily hold up IMO... tires and brake pads are all the car needs.

Personally, my only reservation is the risk, both financial and safety (relative to a less expensive and dedicated track car). Track insurance, as has been pointed out, can help with the financial risk.

[MaynardZed]

12-15 events per year is too much if you want your M3/4 to also be a nice street car too IMO. It will hold up, it's just that you'll be beating the hell out of it. The hassle of switching the brake pads around, all the rock chips, and the wear and tear on the car is what I'm referring to. I know the pads are easy to switch, but it might get old on the ninth switch around. I think 4-6 events per year seems more sensible for such a nice car.