06-03-2019, 07:55 PM | #23 |
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I really like the current ATV/CTS look and how they drive. The problem with GM -V versions is that they still are not able to capture the M-ness of BMW. Dan Neil once said that the ATS-V is not really a BMW M3 but feels more like a very well sorted high HP 335i coupe which I tend to agree. Anybody can make a car goes fast like the M3 nowaday ... I mean a based V8 Camaro or Mustang can go just as fast if not faster than the M3.
Engineering a car to have that BMW M feel is not quite so easy though. It takes more than just bolting on a high power engine and stiffening up the suspension (something which the Japanese cars are guilty of as well). It takes messing down to the bones and fleshes of these cars which will cost a lot of money too. To some extend the NSX which is designed and built in Ohio has the same problem when comparing to those of Ferrari, McLaren, R8 ... |
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06-03-2019, 10:33 PM | #24 |
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it seems they gave up on the interior layout and did copy-paste of bmw interior
it may be good chassis but that's not enough to compete in the segment and it looks dated already |
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06-04-2019, 05:00 AM | #25 | |
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If the Alpha-2 chassis holds true to what the ATS delivered for driving dynamics, then that's half the game for me. I like the looks of the CT-4 so far. Maybe Cadillac will go rouge and actually put a V6 with a manual in it.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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06-04-2019, 05:14 AM | #26 |
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So the ATS had an integrated touch screen, which everyone pissed all over. The follow-on CT4 has a tablet sticking out of the dash like the G20 and A4 et.al., and now with a rotary controller, and... peeing again. At least it has real analog gauges, instead of whatever BMW came up with... the counter-clockwise tachometer.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Last edited by Efthreeoh; 06-04-2019 at 05:24 AM.. |
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06-04-2019, 06:25 AM | #27 | |
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06-04-2019, 08:28 AM | #28 | |
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Current: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, 2023 Colorado ZR2. Former: BMW 428i Gran Coupe.
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06-04-2019, 08:54 AM | #29 | |
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06-04-2019, 01:43 PM | #31 | |
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06-04-2019, 08:41 PM | #32 |
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Based on.... what? Have you driven it? Ridden in it? Seen it for real?
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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06-04-2019, 08:49 PM | #33 | |
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The ATS and now, hopefully CT4 will keep this old man ripping up back country roads you'd pay someone to get to drive on.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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06-04-2019, 08:56 PM | #34 | |
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06-04-2019, 09:37 PM | #35 | |
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Few data points about Cadillac - all in the last year or so: - April 2018: Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen leaves the company (fired). Johan was a GM outsider. Steve Carlisle, his replacement, is a GM insider (more of the same) - In 2018, Cadillac sold 11K ATS vehicles vs 45K BMW 3 series. ATS-V and M3 sales are included in these numbers - In January 2018, newly appointed GM President Mark Reuss told Reuters "we don't have any chances left with taking Cadillac to a really new place" - Cadillac's Super Cruise system doesn't work well under full sunlight. The system can suddenly shut off "if direct sunlight is stopping a steering-wheel-column-mounted infrared camera from looking at your face". https://www.autonews.com/technology/...s-super-cruise Back to the new CT4-V and CT5-V. These new cars are a complete departure from ATS-V and CTS-V. For example, in 2016 3rd generation CTS-V offered 640 HP. CT5-V 3.0-liter twin turbo V6 offers 355 horsepower while BMW M340i offers 382 horsepower in a B58 derivative. Arguably, B58 engine is one of the best engines built so far. For Cadillac to make a convincing product which competes with BMW, Mercedes and Audi, healthy sales in Europe are a must. Instead, Cadillac sales in Europe have been nearly insignificant. http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...data/cadillac/ Finally, GM interior is well ... Generally Marginal at best. |
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06-05-2019, 06:20 AM | #36 | |
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At some point the argument of "yeah, but the interior sucks" gets old Peeling E90 door handles and steering wheels anyone....
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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06-05-2019, 08:25 AM | #37 | |
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While I don't disagree with all your points I do think some need to be added to or challenged. You can nitpick and cherry-pick quotes all day long (isn't BMW chief in danger of being ousted as well?) that does not necessarily reflect on the product itself. 3-series is a known brand that has been around for a while and the ATS is a first gen vehicle. Many would argue that the ATS was as good, if not better, all around car than the 3 (many in this thread have said as such) but the ATS was not well-marketed and never got traction. People love bimmers and some blindly! Shoot, even I bought one after knowing about the issues with their V8s. Cadillac lost its way several years back and is trying to rebuild itself. unfortunately, and this is entirely my opinion, not very well.
At least with SC it will not cause you to crash...it will actually make the driver take control. While the system is not perfect it has safety features built in trying to prevent crashes from happening if the system cannot function at 100%. not saying it is fool-proof but we have seen what happens when semi-autonomous features fail (see Tesla). In terms of CT4/5-Vs not following in the ATS/CTS-V footsteps (departure in your words), they are simply using a new naming convention, similar to other OEMs. As already announced, there will be higher performance variants coming out that will be more of that "V" tradition. The CT4/5-Vs are within spitting distance of the M340 so I am not sure the point there. It will compete in the M340 wheelhouse, no doubt. Finally, I don't think you need to be successful in Europe to build to make a convincing product as you say. You need to be successful in Europe as a business to allow you to reinvest in your product for the future. Plenty of vehicles of all types are successful without having much in terms of sales in Europe. I think it is a shame Cadillac cannot be more successful there, but does not mean they cannot make a quality car for their home market that competes with the German automakers. Sorry for the long post. these are just my opinions but felt the need to interject. Quote:
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06-05-2019, 09:31 AM | #38 | ||
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06-05-2019, 09:57 AM | #39 | |
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Being a BMW owner for 30 years and 4 vehicles with 900,000 combined BMW miles under my belt, I doubt there's many people who like and appreciate BMWs like I do. But if BMW is going to offer only a 4-cylinder turbo and 8-sp automatic in their entry level sportsedan like every other manufacturer does, then I have no issue with looking elsewhere. Last edited by Efthreeoh; 06-05-2019 at 10:59 AM.. |
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06-05-2019, 10:10 AM | #40 | |
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Contrary to belief, it was not Johan that wanted to move Cadillac to NYC:
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/04/23/...w-cadillac-gm/ His undoing, again in my opinion, was that he clashed with GM leadership. He honestly wanted Cadillac to succeed, as do all the GM execs, but he clashed a lot with the established leadership. There were pros and cons of moving Cadillac from GM HQ (not necessarily to NYC per se). One benefit I saw was that Cadillac got a bigger voice. You had people that only thought Cadillac as opposed to "GM." Read the above Interview...I enjoyed reading it and agree with Johan on some points. It was a good read. Quote:
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06-05-2019, 12:35 PM | #41 | |
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I think Cadillac's mistakes with the ATS were (a) selling a low-content unit with the iron Duke in it, and (b) not offering a V6/manual trans combo. A V6 with a manual would have gotten me out of my E90. Last edited by Efthreeoh; 06-05-2019 at 12:45 PM.. |
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06-06-2019, 09:26 AM | #42 | |
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I don't see Musk hiring de Nysschen anytime soon after we Nysschen's no-compete clause expries. |
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06-06-2019, 04:08 PM | #43 | |
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Haha...probably not! I liked working with Johan and agreed with his overall vision (not everything per se) and could see why he was frustrated. I think he needed more time and he could have turned Cadillac around. He helped with the growth in China and was now more focused on the US before his ouster. oh well.
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06-07-2019, 01:31 AM | #44 | |
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