[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by Gamb1t

I like the new Zupra when I saw one on the road a few months ago. Sure wouldn't mind having one in my garage. That said, it will be a dilemma when it's time for service. Should I bring it to Toyota or BMW? With the former, it is all warranted, but it will be worked by folks who are used to RAV4s and Corollas.

BMWs aren't that hard to work on, they just need to spend a few hours training the technicians to do oil changes and basic maintenance. For bigger jobs like warrantied engine replacements they will bring in BMW support folks to help as needed and it's covered by your warranty.

[fastboatster]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

BMWs aren't that hard to work on, they just need to spend a few hours training the technicians to do oil changes and basic maintenance. For bigger jobs like warrantied engine replacements they will bring in BMW support folks to help as needed and it's covered by your warranty.

Yeah, but folks used to work on corollas and rav4s will need an attitude adjustment to actually pay attention to what they are doing.

[fastboatster]

Originally Posted by hybris

I'm starting to wonder whether they send all the lemons to the US or something. I'm on my third BMW and never had any major problems, also never been worried about it breaking down - while you guys seem like you can't drive further than your local grocery store because you fear the car will fall apart.

BMW is not rated as any worse than other major brands here in Europe, and overall customer satisfaction is very high.


If you buy an expensive car second hand and expect it to be as cheap to own as a brand new Huyndai with a list price similar to what you bought your BMW second hand, then I understand you may be disappointed - otherwise I'm not sure what you're going on about.

Yeah, bmws are fine for the most part, it's just in the US not too many people can work on them. Even those who can't realky work on them charge a lot of money for it.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by hybris

I'm starting to wonder whether they send all the lemons to the US or something. I'm on my third BMW and never had any major problems, also never been worried about it breaking down - while you guys seem like you can't drive further than your local grocery store because you fear the car will fall apart.

BMW is not rated as any worse than other major brands here in Europe, and overall customer satisfaction is very high.


If you buy an expensive car second hand and expect it to be as cheap to own as a brand new Huyndai with a list price similar to what you bought your BMW second hand, then I understand you may be disappointed - otherwise I'm not sure what you're going on about.

Yes you have to factor in maintenance cost but it's not going to be a whole lot more expensive, the cost savings of buying used more than covers the slightly higher cost of maintenance most of the time.

[hybris]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

Yes you have to factor in maintenance cost but it's not going to be a whole lot more expensive, the cost savings of buying used more than covers the slightly higher cost of maintenance most of the time.

My point wasn't that it's a bad idea to buy second hand.

[supra93]

October Sales

Supra
US: 487
Canada: 26

https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-...er-2019-sales/

https://media.toyota.ca/releases/toy...ovember-record

Z4
US: 265

http://www.bmwusanews.com/newsrelease.do?id=3528&mid=

[spiceyxi]

Originally Posted by supra93

October Sales

Supra
US: 487
Canada: 26

https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-...er-2019-sales/

https://media.toyota.ca/releases/toy...ovember-record

Z4
US: 265

http://www.bmwusanews.com/newsrelease.do?id=3528&mid=

Looks like 2,480ish Supras YTD and ~1,263 Supras on dealers lots. So, some 1200 probably sold to actual customers.

Based on what I saw last month it seems like 100ish Supras got actually sold in November.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by spiceyxi

Looks like 2,480ish Supras YTD and ~1,263 Supras on dealers lots. So, some 1200 probably sold to actual customers.

Based on what I saw last month it seems like 100ish Supras got actually sold in November.

Does anyone remember, or did they even state sales goals? IE, it will take X number of cars sold per month/year to = success.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by hybris

I'm starting to wonder whether they send all the lemons to the US or something. I'm on my third BMW and never had any major problems, also never been worried about it breaking down - while you guys seem like you can't drive further than your local grocery store because you fear the car will fall apart.

BMW is not rated as any worse than other major brands here in Europe, and overall customer satisfaction is very high.

That's because europeans have a FAR higher tolerance for reliability issues. most european cars are absolute garbage in terms of reliability and cost of repairs.

The best one for me is the Golf which is regarded as rock solid in europe but seen as questionable at best here.

I say all this as an owner of Alfas, BMWs and a Saab.

[fastboatster]

I’d say that service schedules and habits are different as well.

[hybris]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

That's because europeans have a FAR higher tolerance for reliability issues. most european cars are absolute garbage in terms of reliability and cost of repairs.

The best one for me is the Golf which is regarded as rock solid in europe but seen as questionable at best here.

I say all this as an owner of Alfas, BMWs and a Saab.

Well, Alfa and Saab is actually the least reliable ones, so you weren't that lucky with your pick.

Apart from that it's an interesting comment, we say the same about american brands. So probably a bit of bias involved. But objectively , especially build quality is way worse in american brands compared to european (no, I'm not talking just about Tesla).

The major german brands are generally reliable (BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche, Audi). The last decade or so, Skoda, Opel and even Renault and Peugeot (the last two used to struggle) are quite good. Volvo is also good.

Saab is bankrupt..and Alfa is italian - those guys struggle to build anything reliable, but iusually quite sexy (Lamborghini, Ferrari, Pagani)

[Alfisti]

BMW, Audi and Mercedes are not reliable, at all. Almost no one buys used if they can afford it, they are notorious for problems and expensive problems.

Domestics are regraded as junk too, but the Japanese have it all over both domestics and euromobiles. North Americans also do far, far mor emiles than europenas.

[Grip Addict]

Bunch of Supra's from SEMA:

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by hybris

Apart from that it's an interesting comment, we say the same about american brands. So probably a bit of bias involved. But objectively , especially build quality is way worse in american brands compared to european (no, I'm not talking just about Tesla).

Ironic, because many American brands have FAR better in reliability than German brands. That old myth that American cars suck and have poor reliability is bias on your part. Now if you don't like American cars and they suck for other reasons, that's fine, but that's not what we are talking about here.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by thebmw

Ironic, because many American brands have FAR better in reliability than German brands. That old myth that American cars suck and have poor reliability is bias on your part. Now if you don't like American cars and they suck for other reasons, that's fine, but that's not what we are talking about here.

The GM twin midsize trucks are BY FAR the least reliable new vehicle out right now. Their 'new' 8 speed trannies are absolute garbage, and they have tons of electrical problems. 2nd is the Camaro... American quality is usually pretty garbage IMO.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Conissah

The GM twin midsize trucks are BY FAR the least reliable new vehicle out right now. Their 'new' 8 speed trannies are absolute garbage, and they have tons of electrical problems. 2nd is the Camaro... American quality is usually pretty garbage IMO.

That may be true, don't know. Show some data. Either way, you are referring to a specific model, not an entire brand (for disclosure, I'm not a GM fan, but I am a fan of actual data).

On that note, EVERY BMW model has massive issues with gaskets, plus a variety of minor issues, annoyances, and long term reliability problems. That's an entire brand, not just one model with a transmission that is actually sourced from a 3rd party supplier. All of us here know that is true, but we still somehow like BMW!

[thebmw]

2019 Reliability Ratings:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings

GM finished 1st, Ford finished 2nd. This is despite the fact that Americans complain about American cars more than Japanese cars or European cars (long explanation behind psychology behind that behavior that I don't have time to get into). That doesn't mean we have to like the actual cars that these brands are producing, it just means that we can't make current statements about reliability based on historical shortcomings.

BTW, nice M2C!!

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by thebmw

2019 Reliability Ratings:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings

GM finished 1st, Ford finished 2nd. This is despite the fact that Americans complain about American cars more than Japanese cars or European cars (long explanation behind psychology behind that behavior that I don't have time to get into). That doesn't mean we have to like the actual cars that these brands are producing, it just means that we can't make current statements about reliability based on historical shortcomings.

BTW, nice M2C!!

Hang on ... Which brand finished 3rd in your reference above?

BMW.

Yet, in the post previous to this one, you go on and on about how every BMW has gasket issues, issues, annoyances, et. al.

I think the point to be made here is that one can fudge stats just about any way one wants. (J.D. Power certainly does.)

It's no secret that American marques have made great inroads into debunking its poor-reliability stereotype. It's also no secret that Japanese marques have lost ground in the same field. It's no secret, as well, that Italian- and British-built marques bring up the rear.

What no one seems to want to acknowledge is what the 4th-place finisher in the provided results -- Kia -- represents: : How comparatively reliable most Korean marques now are.

[Red Bread]

Just about any car is dead reliable now. Well, barring Alfa. Since so many cars are half liter per cylinder with a ZF8, it's perhaps not that surprising.

[zx10guy]

[fastboatster]

Well, I wonder how they measure their reliability metrics. If that’s just over the warranty period then BMWs are dead reliable.
Was looking at my cars service records and before the end of warranty it only had tire and oil changes. There might have been an ofhg leak and vanos solenoid replacement, but these might have been at 80kmiles. There also was a valve cover gasket leak at 80kmiles, too. I was very shocked by the quotes to get these repairs as well as the run flat tire prices, though.
Anyways, these were all past the regular warranty period so not likely to be caught by JD Power
@VifferMike - am I correct to assume that viffer in your nickname refers to Honda VFR?

[Grip Addict]

Originally Posted by fastboatster

Well, I wonder how they measure their reliability metrics. If that’s just over the warranty period then BMWs are dead reliable.
Was looking at my cars service records and before the end of warranty it only had tire and oil changes. There might have been an ofhg leak and vanos solenoid replacement, but these might have been at 80kmiles. There also was a valve cover gasket leak at 80kmiles, too. I was very shocked by the quotes to get these repairs as well as the run flat tire prices, though.
Anyways, these were all past the regular warranty period so not likely to be caught by JD Power
@VifferMike - am I correct to assume that viffer in your nickname refers to Honda VFR?

There is a reason why many warranty time periods/mileage are set. Very unlikely a OEMs car will break with in 3 years/30k miles. They realize if it does, you deserve it to be fixed. That 4-5+ year is when things start happening.