[spiceyxi]

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

I was at one of the local Toyota dealers this weekend having my Tacoma serviced, and I counted 10 Supras on the lot. This particular dealer was insanely busy with service appoints and shoppers that day, but even with that much showroom traffic, I didn't notice a single person interested in any of the Supras other than myself.

Are they still trying to get MSRP+? I can't wait to see how they handle the 385hp and 335hp versions sitting on the lot next to each other.

[pikkagtr]

Originally Posted by spiceyxi

Are they still trying to get MSRP+? I can't wait to see how they handle the 385hp and 335hp versions sitting on the lot next to each other.

I'm already starting to see discounts of 5-7% here in the Bay area
The car I went to see in person only to realize how fast&furious the fake vents are was marked up $15k
The same white Supra premium is now $4500 off

[The HACK]

This is playing out almost exactly like BMW's own E86 Z4 M Coupe launch.

The mighty E86 Coupe was launched in March of 2006 to much fanfare. "OMG S54 in a 200 lbs lighter chassis than the E46 M3? With more than 2X the structural rigidity? Coupled with BMW's greatest steering rack ever from the E36 M3? Sign me the f**k up!" I remember walking in to my favorite BMW dealership to my favorite BMW General Sales Manager and said "I want one and I want it now." He smiled at me and asked how much over MSRP was I willing to pay for the one they had coming in 6 weeks.

I balked at the idea of paying mark-up, so I placed an order for one at MSRP. To this day still the ONLY car I have ever paid more than factory invoice for in more in more than 20 years of car buying and ownership experience. Deposit was accepted in March. Production date was slated for August...Because EVERY SINGLE ONE of their allocation has been spoke for until then, and they're the number 3 BMW dealership in the country so they actually had 2 coming in every month.

When I picked it up on first week of September, I have only ever seen one other Z4 M Coupe IRL outside of dealership lots. Up until the month of maybe early October, in a 100 mile radius in the highest BMW dealership density area in the world, there's maybe 2-3 available on all the lots combined. We're talking about 10-12 BMW dealership within a 50 mile radius. Every one of them demanded a $10,000 mark-up.

Spoke with the same General Sales Manager near the end of November, because I wanted to get an E92 for my wife to replace her E60 545i (because, you know, REPAIR BILLS). Took a walk through their lot and I counted 6 Z4 M Coupes on the floor. So I asked him about it, and grimly he told me that they couldn't give them away. In fact, there's a $5,000 trunk cash to move them (at the time. The trunk cash increased to $10,000 by next April), and that BMW may have totally mis-calculated the demand and started producing them at a much higher pace (there were total of 3xx built in 2006 for world wide consumption. They basically doubled the production volume for 2007 and 2008 to come to 4,xxx total made if memory serves). By late 2007 they were all being sold for invoice MINUS the $10,000 trunk cash, making them around $48K out the door for one that's minimally optioned. I paid $56K MSRP for mine plus nearly 10% tax.

By all means, the Zupra is a fantastic car. So was the Z4 M Coupe. It's just, really, the market for a 2 seater sport car is depressed and often over estimated. There really isn't that much room here for more than a few cars per segment, and you've got pressure from the lower end in the form of a Miata and the Toyobaru, and spend another $5 grand in features and you're in mid engine C8 Corvette range. In the same pricing category you've got far more practical solutions that are nearly as fast if not faster in Crapstangs and Mullet-maros, both have back seats and far more sensible if it's going to be your ONLY car.

Plus direct competition from BMW in the forms of the E46 M3 for the Z4 M Coupe (2 more seats, $8,000 less MSRP) and M2 Competition (2 more seats, marginally more expensive). Had they (BMW and Yota) priced both the Z4 M Coupe and the Supra about $10,000 less, I believe there's a legitimate market that exists that DO want a funky little sporty car like this.

But not big enough to support selling more than a few thousand copies a year, IMO.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by spiceyxi

Are they still trying to get MSRP+? I can't wait to see how they handle the 385hp and 335hp versions sitting on the lot next to each other.

I am guessing they are, but I also didn't ask. The place was so busy that I was never approached by any sales people while I was looking around. I was curious and wanted to ask the same question.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by The HACK

This is playing out almost exactly like BMW's own E86 Z4 M Coupe launch.

The mighty E86 Coupe was launched in March of 2006 to much fanfare. "OMG S54 in a 200 lbs lighter chassis than the E46 M3? With more than 2X the structural rigidity? Coupled with BMW's greatest steering rack ever from the E36 M3? Sign me the f**k up!" I remember walking in to my favorite BMW dealership to my favorite BMW General Sales Manager and said "I want one and I want it now." He smiled at me and asked how much over MSRP was I willing to pay for the one they had coming in 6 weeks.

I balked at the idea of paying mark-up, so I placed an order for one at MSRP. To this day still the ONLY car I have ever paid more than factory invoice for in more in more than 20 years of car buying and ownership experience. Deposit was accepted in March. Production date was slated for August...Because EVERY SINGLE ONE of their allocation has been spoke for until then, and they're the number 3 BMW dealership in the country so they actually had 2 coming in every month.

When I picked it up on first week of September, I have only ever seen one other Z4 M Coupe IRL outside of dealership lots. Up until the month of maybe early October, in a 100 mile radius in the highest BMW dealership density area in the world, there's maybe 2-3 available on all the lots combined. We're talking about 10-12 BMW dealership within a 50 mile radius. Every one of them demanded a $10,000 mark-up.

Spoke with the same General Sales Manager near the end of November, because I wanted to get an E92 for my wife to replace her E60 545i (because, you know, REPAIR BILLS). Took a walk through their lot and I counted 6 Z4 M Coupes on the floor. So I asked him about it, and grimly he told me that they couldn't give them away. In fact, there's a $5,000 trunk cash to move them (at the time. The trunk cash increased to $10,000 by next April), and that BMW may have totally mis-calculated the demand and started producing them at a much higher pace (there were total of 3xx built in 2006 for world wide consumption. They basically doubled the production volume for 2007 and 2008 to come to 4,xxx total made if memory serves). By late 2007 they were all being sold for invoice MINUS the $10,000 trunk cash, making them around $48K out the door for one that's minimally optioned. I paid $56K MSRP for mine plus nearly 10% tax.

By all means, the Zupra is a fantastic car. So was the Z4 M Coupe. It's just, really, the market for a 2 seater sport car is depressed and often over estimated. There really isn't that much room here for more than a few cars per segment, and you've got pressure from the lower end in the form of a Miata and the Toyobaru, and spend another $5 grand in features and you're in mid engine C8 Corvette range. In the same pricing category you've got far more practical solutions that are nearly as fast if not faster in Crapstangs and Mullet-maros, both have back seats and far more sensible if it's going to be your ONLY car.

Plus direct competition from BMW in the forms of the E46 M3 for the Z4 M Coupe (2 more seats, $8,000 less MSRP) and M2 Competition (2 more seats, marginally more expensive). Had they (BMW and Yota) priced both the Z4 M Coupe and the Supra about $10,000 less, I believe there's a legitimate market that exists that DO want a funky little sporty car like this.

But not big enough to support selling more than a few thousand copies a year, IMO.

I think you are spot on. Had I not bought my 135 back in 2008, I very well may have gone for a Z4 M Coupe. I imagine there would be more interest in the Supra if a 6MT were available, but that's just my speculation.

I love the current Miata in the Club trim level and would probably go that route if I were shopping, but if the Supra was about $10k less and available with a manual, it would absolutely make my short list.

[spiceyxi]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Plus direct competition from BMW in the forms of the E46 M3 for the Z4 M Coupe (2 more seats, $8,000 less MSRP) and M2 Competition (2 more seats, marginally more expensive). Had they (BMW and Yota) priced both the Z4 M Coupe and the Supra about $10,000 less, I believe there's a legitimate market that exists that DO want a funky little sporty car like this.

But not big enough to support selling more than a few thousand copies a year, IMO.

I saw all the text and wasn't going to read. Saw you posted and read the entire post.

I think you are correct.

I loved the Z4 when it came out and desperately to buy one, but just finished college at the time and couldn't justify it. I ended up getting a Z4 coupe several years later. Love the car and I am currently feeling the market for what is next. If I was going to spend ~$60k it is hard not to choose the M2 or the C8. I'll likely land on a used Jag Ftype R or C7 GS for a bit under that mark.

I like the Supra, but not enough to buy it. I really hate all of the fake vents on it. Maybe when depreciation takes it till on the price...

[alex2364]

People keep saying they rather get a $60k C8. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t buy stripped $60k sports cars. A nicely equipped C8 is more in the $75-80k range and that’s a good amount more than $55k Supra.

[Conissah]

Emissions are barring the 2021 Supra from Euro markets with full power, will only get 340 instead of 382... Womp womp womp.

https://carbuzz.com/news/europe-bans...nnoying-reason

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by alex2364

People keep saying they rather get a $60k C8. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t buy stripped $60k sports cars. A nicely equipped C8 is more in the $75-80k range and that’s a good amount more than $55k Supra.

I am probably a bad example because I DID buy a loaded up C7 Corvette with every single options ticked, but that’s only because it was one of the few 7 speed manuals available within the LA Metropolitan area. One or two more options and the MSRP would have rested $90k

If I were to spec out one RIGHT NOW, I couldn’t because there’s no manual option, but I would have gone with the Z51 1LT base model ($65K) and nothing else. If you watch Corvette sales trends, you’ll find over 60% of all Corvettes sold are base model, base trim, bare essentials cars.

The Grand Sport I bought sat on the lot because it had ALL the options ticked except for the Heritage package and CF aeros. At $88k it was way beyond what typical Corvette shoppers were comfortable with.

Frankly I can live without the bulk of the amenities that comes with the upper trims, since a base Corvette comes very well appointed to begin with. On a BMW? Sure, I’d load up on some option packages because they nickle and dime you with features. But I guarantee you more than 50% of C8 orders fall between the absolute base $60K to minimally equipped around $65k.

After all, the. VAST majority of Corvettes are just garage queens and few can tell the difference between a 1LT and 3LT with front axle lift from a glance.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I am probably a bad example because I DID buy a loaded up C7 Corvette with every single options ticked, but that’s only because it was one of the few 7 speed manuals available within the LA Metropolitan area. One or two more options and the MSRP would have rested $90k

If I were to spec out one RIGHT NOW, I couldn’t because there’s no manual option, but I would have gone with the Z51 1LT base model ($65K) and nothing else. If you watch Corvette sales trends, you’ll find over 60% of all Corvettes sold are base model, base trim, bare essentials cars.

The Grand Sport I bought sat on the lot because it had ALL the options ticked except for the Heritage package and CF aeros. At $88k it was way beyond what typical Corvette shoppers were comfortable with.

Frankly I can live without the bulk of the amenities that comes with the upper trims, since a base Corvette comes very well appointed to begin with. On a BMW? Sure, I’d load up on some option packages because they nickle and dime you with features. But I guarantee you more than 50% of C8 orders fall between the absolute base $60K to minimally equipped around $65k.

After all, the. VAST majority of Corvettes are just garage queens and few can tell the difference between a 1LT and 3LT with front axle lift from a glance.

C7 sales trends have been towards 1LT in the last few years, but enthusiasts generally buy during the first couple years of release and those have trended towards 2LT and 3LT. After all, look at the initial C8 build schedule and they were only building loaded 2LT and 3LT models.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by alex2364

C7 sales trends have been towards 1LT in the last few years, but enthusiasts generally buy during the first couple years of release and those have trended towards 2LT and 3LT. After all, look at the initial C8 build schedule and they were only building loaded 2LT and 3LT models.

Wait, they're starting production with the highest margin models? Surely that's exactly what buyers asked for and not in any way a business decision.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Wait, they're starting production with the highest margin models? Surely that's exactly what buyers asked for and not in any way a business decision.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic but majority of C8 orders are not 1LT models. This is the initial build schedule before the GM strike changed everything.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by alex2364

Not sure if you're being sarcastic but majority of C8 orders are not 1LT models. This is the initial build schedule before the GM strike changed everything.

Yes, very sarcastic. Are those customer or dealer orders? I've bought plenty of cars that are heavy on options and know that those cars sell for the same price as strippers. In other words, options are awesome on used cars.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Yes, very sarcastic. Are those customer or dealer orders? I've bought plenty of cars that are heavy on options and know that those cars sell for the same price as strippers. In other words, options are awesome on used cars.

Some dealers already sold out their 2020 allocations and have waiting lists for MY2021.

[supra93]

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/duk...our-supra.5018

[fullstack]

When I first saw it, I was so disappointed. However, after looking at it from the perspective of import tuners, I can see the appeal. I think Toyota is trying to appeal to the graduated import tuners with more money and no time for a manual transmission. How else can you justify making 2021 so much better than 2020? They made it easy for an engine swap too. Toyota is betting that people are just going to upgrade/customize everything anyways. I was really hoping the 4 cyl came with an mt like initially speculated but apparently they don't want it competing with the gt86 market. Is Toyota going to break ties with Subaru and go for the bmw engine in the new gr86 as the hp/tq numbers, and name change implies? I think they should discontinue the gt86 and offer the supra with a mt in both 6 cyl and 4 cyl variants. I would get the 2021 A91 edition in Refraction blue if it came with a mt.

[supra93]

The 2nd gen 86 will continue on with Subaru.

https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/co.../29916271.html

[Mingwan]

No word on a manual?

I like how they give the Yaris GR a manual, but not the supra

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

No word on a manual?

I like how they give the Yaris GR a manual, but not the supra

Kind of hard for Toyota to put a manual in the car when the entire drive train is from BMW. It would be up to BMW to decide if/when a manual goes in. I'm sure Toyota would have some input into this decision.

Otherwise, if someone really wants a manual, you can get one but you'll have to go aftermarket via EAG. I've posted a bunch of their build videos where they installed a BMW manual trans out of a 5 series diesel into a Supra. They are now doing the conversions for anyone willing to pay for it.

[supra93]

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Mingwan

No word on a manual?

I like how they give the Yaris GR a manual, but not the supra

It's probably BMW's call or fault. I would guess you will only see a Supra with 6MT if the Z4 M40i got one.

Edit - zx10guy beat me to it

[supra93]

https://jalopnik.com/the-2020-toyota...h-a-1840457071

We all knew tuners would be coming for the A90 Toyota Supra. Litchfield was one of the first to have a go cranking more grunt out of the car’s BMW-sourced powertrain, and its first car took the stock output from 335 to over 400. And there’s more to come once its ECU has been properly mapped.

(Full Disclosure: When I found out Litchfield was planning to fettle the Supra I asked if I could have a whirl toward the end of 2019. I was told “yes” so went to drive it. The lovely images you see before you were provided by Litchfield.)

Litchfield has been tuning cars for years and is most famous for its work with the Nissan GT-R. Ask Litchfield nicely and you’ll get yourself 1,000 HP and a big, silly grin on your face. Still, when the new Supra came out, the team was quick to act. Being first past the post counts for a lot these days.



What Is It?
This was one of the first tuned new-gen Supras in the world. Originally mooted in mid-2019, the Litchfield Supra package was set to come with at least 440 HP and 450 lb-ft of torque, as well as a host of upgraded parts to ensure it’ll kick as much ass as possible.

The car available for testing here was an early production car sourced by Litchfield and given a power bump to “at least” 490 HP with just a Stage One tune and a modified exhaust. The car itself wasn’t with Litchfield any more though, rather with ECU cracking specialists EcuTek, who bought the car in order to do what it does best: Break into the ECU and create engine map software for tuners all over the world to play with.

EcuTek’s specialty is also GT-Rs, but the new Supra proved an interesting opportunity for the firm. Once EcuTek has finished its work, the possibilities with the A90 Supra will broaden in a big way as firms like Litchfield (and others) will be able to push it to its very limits. And, probably, beyond.

Other than its Litchfield power bump, it’s a standard car. No trick springs or dampers, no bigger turbo or jazzy cooling systems. It’s a 3.0-liter turbocharged straight-six with some extra grunt, gently dipping its toe into a rapidly deepening pond.



Specs That Matter
As an early salvo to the world of A90 Supra tuning, it’s not a bad start. Its 3.0-liter motor has been tuned from 335 HP and 365 lb-ft of torque to 490 HP and 472 lb-ft, while its 0-62 mph (100 kph) time is claimed to be comfortably below the stock 4.3 seconds and its top speed is yet to be tested.

For the setup driven here, you’d only need to sling Litchfield $800 for the tune and $468 [accurate at time of writing] for the pipes. Seems damn reasonable if the performance gain claims are to be believed!

What’s Great
It’s useable. The standard powertrain is pretty easy to live with. Smooth and quick when you need it to be. Give it a dollop of extra power and it retains its smoothness. So much so that pretty much anyone could drive it around town without any problems at all.



More power means more noise. The start-up burble is pleasing, the cracks, pops, and bangs in sport mode are hilarious fun. Keep it standard you’ll get a hint at its anti-socialness, but in Sport mode, it’s frankly rude. The best kind of rude at that.

What’s Weak
Standard mechanicals means the car can get a little ahead of itself. In a typically damp UK, pressing on with a sense of urgency, in lower gears the rear tires would try and step out of line. While that would be utterly hilarious on track, on the road you remain grateful for the traction control stepping in and doing its thing.

Much like anything with big power you need to respect the Supra’s limits, but without the rest of the “make go fast” bits that Litchfield offers you may find yourself overwhelmed.

Casual Driving
After an initial burble on startup, the Supra calms itself down and is a most pleasant thing to drive. Thanks to its ludicrous quantities of torque you can leave its eight-speed ’box in auto mode and it’ll waft you along quickly and quietly.



Seeing as the mechanicals and dimensions are the same as the standard car, you can see well enough out of it (though its rear window is teeny tiny), its massive wing mirrors are certainly up to the job of showing you what’s behind you, and its trunk is big enough for 99 percent of the stuff the owner of a two-seater would possibly need.

All the things you know and love from BMWs are present and correct: iDrive, intuitive controls, the works. Here is not the time or place to have the “it’s not a Toyota/yes it is” argument, but the BMW bits sure do what they’re supposed to.

OK, you need to watch its huge wheels on high curbs, and maybe take a bit more care of its long nose than you would a regular car... but despite its huge power it’s a good way to travel. Long story short, it’s good at being “a car.”



Aggressive Driving
Your first task after leaving civilization in Litchfield’s latest is to press the Sport button, find a straight bit of road and play with the throttle. Keep it in second and give it half pedal. Slow down and then give it three quarters. Then try it at full chat. Those last two will trouble the traction control something rotten, especially if it’s a bit soggy out.

See, that Sport button sets the car up to be a little angrier. Its gearbox shifts with a sporty jolt, the power’s throw out of the rear with extra gusto. You know the Supra’s a quick car from the off, but this amount of power is something else. There’s nearly as much grunt in there as a 911 GT3. Which is a silly amount of power anyway, but throw turbo torque in there and it’s breathtakingly quick. If it doesn’t help you create a few new swear words... well, we’d all be a bit surprised.

Sport is a truly joyous place to be. The eight-speed ZF ’box becomes an addictive thing to play with. Quick flicks up and down become the order of the day because they coax out the noise. On the day to day it’s a fairly quiet thing, ok it lets out more burbles than your average shopping car, but it’s not in your face. When you’re on it, it gets all up in there. Bassy, raspy, angry, brilliant. And you get pops and bangs and all the good stuff on overrun, which just adds to its charm.



In the state available, the Litchfield Supra comes with only the power upgrade - not the upcoming strut brace, bespoke springs, or tweaked caster bush it can come with. This means that the power seems as though it could quite comfortably overwhelm it in the wrong hands. With all of the potential set up on board, this thing will be a weapon and a half. That said, if you’ve got the right hands it’s still a blast on the road. On track, in its current state, well... that would mean lots and lots of drifting. Excellent.

Value
At $800 to get this kind of power boost, the price seems great. Now, once EcuTek has freed up the ECU and shown the world’s tuners how to get the best out of it, there’ll be more options to play with. However, Litchfield has years of high profile, high-performance pedigree behind them.



Verdict
The potential of the A90 Supra is yet to be fully tapped. Litchfield has made a hell of a good start with its opening gambit to the game. 490 HP is not to be sniffed at, and driven sensibly it’s delivered smoothly. From the off, this can be your sole car if you want it to be. And once you’re done driving sensibly around town you can play with some big league stuff without having to invest anywhere near as much cash. Of course, once newer tunes are available, Litchfield (and others) will be able to play with your motor to your heart’s content. The days of the 1000 HP Supra may well be upon us again, only this time with a Bavarian heart.

+
It'll make your stock Supra much, much quicker than your neighbor's

-
If there's been rain any time in the past day or so lots of its horses will try to break free

TL;DR
One of the first tuned Supras out there is pretty good. For not much cash you can make your A90 silly powerful but not ruin it.

POWER
490 HP • 472 LB-FT

WEIGHT
3,351 LBS

PRICE
Starting $49,900 • $51,168 (with Litchfield bits)