[Tejas1836]

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Both drivers survived.

[ash_schwin]

Saw this video last night, amazing the level of engineering on both cars that allowed everyone to survive.

[zx10guy]

Yes. The amazing level of safety engineering allowed both drivers to survive that crash.

As to the M2 not using blinkers, I may be the minority in this viewpoint. But the Porsche driver was in my eyes 100% at fault for the crash. Blinker use or not. But my track experience involves motorcycles and the track events I do if I were to make a similar attempt to pass as this Porsche driver did, I would be 100% at fault.

[KevinGS]

Amazing everyone survived. We're lucky to be car enthusiasts in 2025. Hec, 25 years ago, without extensive airbags and better structures, these 2 drivers would not have lived to tell this story.

And I'm surprised this doesn't happen more on the 'Ring, given the level of speed and driver inexperience.

Since the M2 didn't use blinkers, isn't that informing the Porsche driver that it's not safe to pass, yet? Without the M2 signaling to the right, how does the Porsche driver know that the M2 even saw him, let alone is allowing him to pass?

Looks like the Porsche driver is 100% in the wrong.

[G30M]

saw this yesterday. fault at 50-50 from what i can see. if new evidence i will be happy to change my mind.

BMW moved right when the racing line is left. by moving away from racing line it appeared to show he was allowing the pass. yes the rule says blinker but that's not always used. a lot of these guys don't know where the blinker stalk is or what it does, some let their subscription expire.

Porsche is 50% at fault. the person making the pass bears responsibility to ensure the pass is safe, a bit like downhill skiing. he should not have tried to complete the pass on the curb at 200kph! he should have braked hard. but this is how people seem to drive on the Ring these days, cultural 'norm'.

who is more at fault is difficult. these things happen so fast at 200kph. if pushed i still say 51% to porsche but no more. just because of the 'norms' (vs rules) and how quickly it happened. legally i think both will bear the same cost burden of repairing the track and their own cars.

[NSXR]

I didn't see this thread, and posted this to the other one.

This is being discussed ad nauseam on the Nur pages.

German law puts the fault with the BMW, but common sense puts the fault with the Porsche.

Basically the Porsche driver was being too aggressive, and came up on the BMW so quickly that the BMW driver likely didn't see him at all, never indicated right when moving right and turned into the Porsche not even knowing it was there.

The Porsche driver never waited for a signal, and saw the BMW move left on an earlier corner, and was trying to squeeze through without enough power.

Oblivious-at-speed and legal fault goes to the BMW, stupidity award goes to the Porsche driver.

[zx10guy]

Watching the video again since there was a mention the M2 driver was "moving" out of the way. I see no evidence of this. The couple of "corners" leading up to the incident showed the M2 driver was using the typical line going into the corners apexing where the rumble strips are. Granted the M2 driver's line was a bit sloppy with the steering corrections.

Had I been following the M2, I would have chosen to pass on the outside with the speed differential that was present between the M2 and the Porsche. Or just waited for a better opportunity to pass.

The rule at the track days I go to is the rider in front of me has the right of way. It's on me as the faster rider overtaking the slower rider to do so cleanly. If we're both converging into the same spot in the corner such as apexing it and I'm not fully passed the slower rider by the time we're there, it's my fault. Even if I had a portion of the wheel ahead of the slower rider, it's still my fault. I've been on track where I had to figure out a pass on a rider that was all over the track without a consistent line. I observe for a few corners and pick where it's safe to pass based on what I have seen as the tendency of the rider. If the rider is that unpredictable on the track, usually the corner workers or the on track coaches will already know about it and will be addressing it with that rider. If not, I have the ability to report it to either course control or my on track coach. Whether this is how the Ring works, I don't know.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Whether this is how the Ring works, I don't know.

on Touristenfahrten days normal German road rules apply

track days have different rules

[BroDoze]

Dayum!

[G30M]

Originally Posted by NSXR

I didn't see this thread, and posted this to the other one.

This is being discussed ad nauseam on the Nur pages.

German law puts the fault with the BMW, but common sense puts the fault with the Porsche.

i agree that both are just about equally responsible. the track is a normal public road and people think they are doing qualifying runs and everyone should give way.

unfortunately because the speeds involved are so fast, there's not enough time to make good decisions. i have the same problem even at 100kph already. sometimes you make a poor decision in hindsiight that at the time felt like a good idea. BMW should not appear to move away from the racing line, Porsche should have backed out if he thought the BMW might be coming back onto the racing line.

i don't know what the BMW was doing. i know what the Porsche was doing. "Ring incident" is what happened.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by G30M

Porsche should have backed out if he thought the BMW might be coming back onto the racing line. I know what the Porsche was doing.

The Porsche driver had the benefit of watching the BMW driver, and thus caused the accident IMO, but the entire thing happened so quickly, I'm sure I could have made the same mistake. I can also see how the Porsche driver could have believed that the BMW driver was making way. Hard to put a percentage on this one I think. Maybe Misha will make a video about it and show us how he sees it.

[tcphoto]

I saw the video a day or two ago, the BMW yielded to the passing Porsche but immediately returned to the left causing the crash.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by tcphoto

I saw the video a day or two ago, the BMW yielded to the passing Porsche but immediately returned to the left causing the crash.

I don’t know. I tend to agree with the assessment the Porsche driver came up so fast, didn’t really wait much at all, and it’s likely the BMW driver didn’t even know he was there. Otherwise there’s no logical explanation for the BMW driver moving back to the left. If the BMW driver had been aware of the presence of the Porsche it would have been obvious that moving left would cause a collision.

[Alfisti]

I find this really fascinating. In the first video from the Porsche driver's POV, I see no turn to the right, it looks straight to me. yet, from above, clear as friggin day the Porsche drives head long into a wedge.

If, and huge if, the Porsche driver was aware there was a kink approaching and could actually see more than was seen by his camera, it is his fault. Before I saw the crash my gut instinct was "The body language from the M2 is confusing and indecisive", I see the same thing on the street and if I get that sense I am extra cautious or give the car a wide berth. To me, it was not 100pc clear the M2 saw the 911, so as the faster car you need to be the one to exercise caution.

It has to also be said that a Turbo S accelerates like damn near nothing else, you need to be aware of what you are driving.

[noemon]

To me this looks like it's clearly the Porsche's fault.

Can't overtake without the car in front giving you the right of way and you certainly can't overtake in a corner.

Like others have said, the BMW very likely did not notice the Porsche and was just following his line. The Porsche snuck into his dead spot in the apex.

[M5Rick]

I don't think so. M2 driver should have been aware P car was approaching..mirror then signal.

[Mavus]

maybe bimmer thought P was not going to pass and went for the apex when P jumped in his blind spot at 170kph

[M3Sleeper]

Originally Posted by noemon

To me this looks like it's clearly the Porsche's fault.

Can't overtake without the car in front giving you the right of way and you certainly can't overtake in a corner.

Like others have said, the BMW very likely did not notice the Porsche and was just following his line. The Porsche snuck into his dead spot in the apex.

Im with you on this. At least wait for a signal if you are going 150KPH+

Its not one of those times where you can "assume" the slower driver saw you...no signal no passing at this speed.

Im blaming the Porsche driver for not controlling his vehicle and passing during a very dangerous turn. Very poor driving here and there is no excuse for it...lucky there was no fatalities

[NSXR]

[SharkeyPM]

I was blown away that the drivers survived this. Wow what a crash!

[Littlecoupe]

I'll be on the 'Ring for TF in less than 3 weeks...and it's the rare situations like this which have me exercising caution.

I obviously won't be going 10/10ths due to my own lack of experience on the track, the cars, and frankly not enough track experience in general. But further to that, I've already decided I'd rather approach traffic cautiously. If someone approaches fast enough to pass, I'm letting them pass. If I'm passing, I'm ONLY doing it if it's fully safe - indicated - most likely on a straight.

I'm excited, but accidents always linger on my mind. I'm actually less concerned about injury to body rather than wallet...LOL.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by NSXR

video

he thinks it's the BMW's fault. that police will investigate. I still think it's 50-50.