Help With IATs on an S85 ESS VT-650

[tjav8b]

There is a huge wealth of knowledge on this forum for supercharging the S65so I thought you guys might be able to help me with my S85.

I am attempting to do some research on how inlet air temperatures are being effected by my ESS VT-650 kit and how efficient the intercooler design is. I am running the BMW Data logger program while conducting a few maximum rpm pulls on the highway. This was in no way a controlled test as I am just starting this and wanted to get a basic idea of what is going on under the hood. Due to the intake design of the VT-650 kit, it is obvious that there are going to be headwinds to cooler IATs. But, before I do something about it I want to understand how bad the problem is. I am also having trouble with the BMW data logger continuously dropping offline.

Ambient temperature was 60 degrees. While driving at 70mph and engine completely warmed up IATs began at 83-85 degrees. After only two 3rd to the top of 4th gear pulls IATs yielded a 148 degree peak. It took about 5 minutes for IATs to come down to 90 degrees where it stabilized. After the IATs stabilized I pulled over and checked under the hood temperatures. Using an infrared thermometer the large air filter (right) measured 100 degrees. The small air filter (left) measured 130 degrees. I am looking into putting a temperature sensor at the filter to get a more accurate reading of how hot the air is that is actually being sucked in.

Even though this was a very rough test, the results do not look good to me. IATs stabilizing 30 degrees above ambient at highway speeds does not seem efficient. Also, seeing 90 degrees above ambient after a few hard pulls on only 7psi does not seem good either. Timing was 25 degrees through 3rd gear and the retarded to 23 through 4th gear.

Click on the link below to see a datalog from 3rd to the top of 4th gear.

http://datazap.me/u/randywei/tjav8b-...ta=1-5-8-10-13

[AreOut]

this is why I plan to run liquid propane instead of gasoline, higher octane + it cools the inlet(oh and twice cheaper here in Europe too), now only to hit proper mapping lol

[Sered]

The correct answer is: None of these in-manifold intercoolers are efficient. They're running them in metal manifolds who heatsoak quickly. They also use tiny cores and small heat exchangers.

I found in my VF kit with a custom IC, 30 degF above ambient is pretty normal. To do better, it would need to be an external core or an air/air front mount. This is why the kits who routinely do better at the track (AA and Evolve) have air/air coolers.

[TheeGovernor]

From the looks of their website the radiator is very undersized for this application. I also cant tell what brand of waterpump they used. Honestly i would upgrade the radiator. I would choose one that is far larger than the stock one. I would also upgrade the pump if it is a bad brand. Let me know if you want some suggestions for radiators.

[M&M]

Those temps are totally normal.

[tjav8b]

Originally Posted by TheeGovernor

From the looks of their website the radiator is very undersized for this application. I also cant tell what brand of waterpump they used. Honestly i would upgrade the radiator. I would choose one that is far larger than the stock one. I would also upgrade the pump if it is a bad brand. Let me know if you want some suggestions for radiators.

The radiator space is maxed out. The one that is in there barely fits as is. I was told, can't confirm, that it is the same radiator that is used on the older model ZR1. The pump is your standard Bosch pump. The system itself holds maybe a gallon at best. I could probably increase my reservoir but I am not sure that would even help.

Has anyone here tried a killer chiller and had success with it? Meth is probably my best solution but I do not have time to R&D a system for my application. I know of only one other guy to put a meth system on their S85 VT-650 and it lost 40hp.

[Sered]

The pump is the same one the CTS-V uses I think. The heat exchanger is still pretty tiny. There is more room up there as upgrades to it are common. The biggest factor imo is the pump though. It just doesn't move the fluid very well. Upgrading that and installing a larger reservoir would help a lot.

This is all moot though as the problem with the metal manifolds still persists. It will heat up substantially as the underhood temps of the M3 are pretty high and has no method of cooling. There's no cooling fins or anything. The metal will be very hot and that will make a big impact on the air inside the manifold and the cooling capacity of the core.

[s85e90]

I agree 100%. The intercooler sandwiched in the manifold sucks plain and simple. I don't care how efficient you're moving the water through the little rad in front, the engine acts as a heat sink, and heat rises. The intake becomes too hot and your IAT spikes. A front mount air/air would be much more efficient.

In the interim, run water wetter and see if it helps.

[Sirius Black]

I have an AA kit, and suffer the same issues on warmer days. From what I can tell it is the lack of the factory air box. We are sucking in heat from the engine bay which gets extremely hot due the exhaust headers/engine temps.

I only get relief while moving without anyone directly in front of me. Saw intake temps as high as 135 degrees while waiting in the staging lanes at the last MPact festival at Pocono. Definitely had an adverse effect on performance.

The only thing I can think to combat this is to have the headers ceramic coated, or wrapped. I'm hoping that will result in much lower under hood temps resulting in lower intake temps.

If anyone has a better idea please let me know.

[Beedub]

my s54 setup on my z4m is really working quite well.... the intake is in a separate compartment to the engine bay where its seeing some really nice fresh cold air, also the fmic appears to be working very well, one of the reasons i went with ESS over the competitors was the fact they had gone with a A/A setup, its a total ball ache fitting it all in and some parts are a real squeeze but i simply can't fault the performance and the consistency this offers me...

OP this is a really interesting thread so thank for putting this up.... how comes theirs 2 filters???

[tjav8b]

Originally Posted by M&M

Those temps are totally normal.

Normal temperatures compared to an ESS S65 or most aftermarket applications? Do you have any idea what my timing targets should be?

[tjav8b]

Originally Posted by Sered

The pump is the same one the CTS-V uses I think. The heat exchanger is still pretty tiny. There is more room up there as upgrades to it are common. The biggest factor imo is the pump though. It just doesn't move the fluid very well. Upgrading that and installing a larger reservoir would help a lot.

This is all moot though as the problem with the metal manifolds still persists. It will heat up substantially as the underhood temps of the M3 are pretty high and has no method of cooling. There's no cooling fins or anything. The metal will be very hot and that will make a big impact on the air inside the manifold and the cooling capacity of the core.

Intake manifold w/intercooler and the pre-supercharger piping temperature measured 100 degrees by an infrared temperature gauge. This is in 60 degree weather.

I could try a better pump. Fluid capacity may be a little harder to do since the engine bay is full. I have been reading a lot about these killer chillers. I have not found anyone that has tried it out on a BMW. They work well on Mercedes supercharged applications.

[Sered]

Originally Posted by Sirius Black

I have an AA kit, and suffer the same issues on warmer days. From what I can tell it is the lack of the factory air box. We are sucking in heat from the engine bay which gets extremely hot due the exhaust headers/engine temps.

I only get relief while moving without anyone directly in front of me. Saw intake temps as high as 135 degrees while waiting in the staging lanes at the last MPact festival at Pocono.

There's not much you can do to avoid IAT creep when idling in most cars. It's how quickly it bleeds off. A plastic intake manifold would go a long way.

And 135 degrees is NOTHING. I was seeing 150+ when I was unintercooled on a 95deg day with no boosting. Just basic driving around I see 135 now on the hotter days when my car has been idling in a parking lot for a few minutes. It'll go down to 120-125, but I'm running a larger and more efficient IC core than what VF normally uses.

FMICs are a far better solution on this platform, which is why currently the AA and Evolve kits are outperforming the others in the real-world (not on a dyno). I still can't understand why no one wants to make a polymer intake manifold either. They're cheaper to product than aluminum, they don't hold onto heat, and they weigh A LOT less. They're very common on other platforms who are pushing far more power than this one ever has.

My biggest criticism with this platform is there's no innovation going on. You've got your S/C companies who are sitting on the same kits they've had for 5 years with almost no changes. The tuning is still locked down because Cobb and other companies kind of skipped this platform and the few people with the knowledge aren't selling any kind of setup for someone to self-tune.

[tjav8b]

Originally Posted by s85e90

I agree 100%. The intercooler sandwiched in the manifold sucks plain and simple. I don't care how efficient you're moving the water through the little rad in front, the engine acts as a heat sink, and heat rises. The intake becomes too hot and your IAT spikes. A front mount air/air would be much more efficient.

In the interim, run water wetter and see if it helps.

I am already running just distilled water with some water wetter added.

[Sered]

Originally Posted by tjav8b

Intake manifold w/intercooler and pre supercharger piping temperature measured 100 degrees by an infrared temperature gauge. This is in 60 degree weather.

I could try a better pump. Fluid capacity may be a little harder to do since the engine bay is full. I have been reading a lot about these killer chillers. I have not found anyone that has tried it out on a BMW. They work well on Mercedes supercharged applications.

Yup, and all that heat is being radiated inwards on the air pre and post IC core.

[Groundpilot]

OP, you can try installing bigger hood vents(louvers). They can reduce underhood temps and reduce lift. May not solve the issue completely, but they will help to keep underhood temp. cooler. IAT should be reduced as a result.

[tjav8b]

Originally Posted by Beedub

OP this is a really interesting thread so thank for putting this up.... how comes theirs 2 filters???

The kit originally had just the one large filter. ESS established later that this was not enough air so the added the second one.

[tjav8b]

Originally Posted by Sirius Black

The only thing I can think to combat this is to have the headers ceramic coated, or wrapped. I'm hoping that will result in much lower under hood temps resulting in lower intake temps.

I have this in the works right now. I had my stock headers decatted and ceramic coated. I should receive them tomorrow. I'll report back the results.

[tjav8b]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

OP, you can try installing bigger hood vents(louvers). They can reduce underhood temps and reduce lift. May not solve the issue completely, but they will help to keep underhood temp. cooler. IAT should be reduced as a result.

I want to do this but I can not locate a hood with vents that does not make the car look like a ricer. I liked the Vorsteiner but they quit making that one a long time ago. I am looking into how I could have my stock hood cut for vents. I have never seen anyone go this route though.

[Sered]

You could always try to hijack some of the air coming through the kidney grills. I've removed my cover that routes the air over to where my airbox used to be (right side facing the motor) and now the outlets blow directly on the manifold. Seems to help a little bit, but again its only while moving. Idling is still going to build up heat.

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by tjav8b

I am already running just distilled water with some water wetter added.

Have you noticed any benefit with this mixture? I was thinking of methanol or windshield fluid but if it's not a noticeable difference I'm going to just continue with 50/50 mixture. I wish someone made a little bigger reservoir tank for our kits. Big enough to add a bit of ice or dried ice, the stock size is tiny.

[Patrón]

Ps I still wished there was a force induction area for our forum.