JB3, how long to adapt?

[InlineSix]

I installed the JB3 PnP on sunday, very simple to install, took me less then an hour. Second time around shouldn't take me more then 10 - 15 minutes.

I've been using map 5 since and I'm not sure if the tune has reached maximum potential (I've driven almost 7 miles since the install). Is there a recommended procedure for the JB3? sush as hitting WOT a few times for the system to recognize the different A/F ratios at different RPMs? Honestly, I haven't really pushed the car much at all, probably one WOT pull till 6K RPM in 4th gear.

Thank you all!

[jeremyc74]

It seems to me like it did the majority of the adaptation within 10-20 miles of varied driving, but I think the entire process takes longer than that. It feels like the maps change as the temperature varies and it fine tunes itself, but maybe that's just in my head.

Cetainly most of it's done after a few hours of driving though.

[oneintheory]

3 WOT runs is what I've heard.

[esses]

1 WOT, all they way through the RPM range, should do it. There are a lot of myths about adaptation taking days and days. Bunk. Its the digital age.

[rcracer_tx]

Originally Posted by esses

1 WOT, all they way through the RPM range, should do it. There are a lot of myths about adaptation taking days and days. Bunk. Its the digital age.

It will be 90% adapted after a few WOT pulls, but the power will become smoother after more time...

[zamm3k]

[/B]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

It seems to me like it did the majority of the adaptation within 10-20 miles of varied driving, but I think the entire process takes longer than that. It feels like the maps change as the temperature varies and it fine tunes itself, but maybe that's just in my head.

Cetainly most of it's done after a few hours of driving though.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by esses

1 WOT, all they way through the RPM range, should do it. There are a lot of myths about adaptation taking days and days. Bunk. Its the digital age.

That's not true at all. The way adaptation works is by testing the knock limits, and adjusting fuel trims, and it CAN'T happen instantly or one one WOT pull. It's done in small increments, and it DOES take some time.

When you first install a JB3 or change maps, the timing and fuel trims are WAY off the mark. The ECU isn't programmed to allow drastic alterations in those things because under normal circumstances that should never be required. The adaptation is designed to gradually alter parameters based on changes in fuel, or wear and tear on componenents. Installing a piggy-back ECU that alters signals isn't something the engineers had in mind when they were writing the software.

[esses]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

That's not true at all. The way adaptation works is by testing the knock limits, and adjusting fuel trims, and it CAN'T happen instantly or one one WOT pull. It's done in small increments, and it DOES take some time.

When you first install a JB3 or change maps, the timing and fuel trims are WAY off the mark. The ECU isn't programmed to allow drastic alterations in those things because under normal circumstances that should never be required. The adaptation is designed to gradually alter parameters based on changes in fuel, or wear and tear on componenents. Installing a piggy-back ECU that alters signals isn't something the engineers had in mind when they were writing the software.

If this is true then you would knock over and over before adapting while the ecu 'found the right balance' of fuel/air. I just don't see that happening, the ecu controls wastegates and maf. The ecu only needs one set of data points to know what it is dealing with. The only adaptation you are going to feel is lag.

I supopse rcracer_tx is right, more data will allow minute changes from the ecu which will reduce lag and alow more optimum operating paramaters for the wastegates, but I would say you are closer to 95% after one WOT. You arent going to see wide tolerance in a modern engine, especially one with piezo injectors.

All this is easy enough to test, fill up with 89 octane and get a knock sensor. If you don't knock then the ecu is in fact working at digital speed.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by esses

If this is true then you would knock over and over before adapting while the ecu 'found the right balance' of fuel/air. I just don't see that happening, the ecu controls wastegates and maf. The ecu only needs one set of data points to know what it is dealing with. The only adaptation you are going to feel is lag.

I supopse rcracer_tx is right, more data will allow minute changes from the ecu which will reduce lag and alow more optimum operating paramaters for the wastegates, but I would say you are closer to 95% after one WOT. You arent going to see wide tolerance in a modern engine, especially one with piezo injectors.

All this is easy enough to test, fill up with 89 octane and get a knock sensor. If you don't knock then the ecu is in fact working at digital speed.

The ECU can pull timing very quickly to protect the engine, but it doesn't put it back nearly as fast. Thats why the adaptation takes a while. It's not just one set of data points. It's a multi-deminsional set of data points that involves IAT, throttle position, and RPM. The ECU is only designed to add timing back in small increments so that once it hits the knock sensor it can back off just a little, and it's good. When you add a JB3 it's starting from scratch, and it takes a while to get where it needs to be.

Sure the majority of it is done in a few passes, but the car will continue to gain power for a while after it's installed as the fuel and timing curves are optimized.

[mjovic]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The ECU can pull timing very quickly to protect the engine, but it doesn't put it back nearly as fast. Thats why the adaptation takes a while. It's not just one set of data points. It's a multi-deminsional set of data points that involves IAT, throttle position, and RPM. The ECU is only designed to add timing back in small increments so that once it hits the knock sensor it can back off just a little, and it's good. When you add a JB3 it's starting from scratch, and it takes a while to get where it needs to be.

Sure the majority of it is done in a few passes, but the car will continue to gain power for a while after it's installed as the fuel and timing curves are optimized.

I can vouch for this as the car definitely felt stronger after driving to and from work over 2-3 days after installing it. What you said makes a lot of sense.

[Driver72]

Well as a person who has done dozens of dyno tests of the various tunes, and many have been with Terry I can say, it's doesn't fully adapt after 1 WOT run.
However, it doesn't take days either.

Usually 2-3 WOT pulls or runs on the road and you have 99% of the full power at that point.
The ECU will continue to adapt to the tune and your driving habits and smooth the power out a BIT, but put it this way:
Once you put the JB3 in drive it relatively moderately for the first several miles to let the ECU adapt to it and make sure there are no issues.
When the oil is warmed up and you have no issues, go wild a bit making a couple WOT runs through a gear or two (at various speeds) and then you can pretty much be assured your at nearly max power then.

Again, on the dyno we've had to do several pulls even during a map change and in the first 2-3 pulls you'll notice power increase a bit (especially from the first to second pull).
Then with appropriate cool down you'll notice run 3 increase a bit more and be smoother.
Subsequent runs, even with 2-3 minute cool downs rarely see anymore power gains.

I've even come back to the dyno months later with the same map and pretty much got VERY similiar results to what the best run was when I first put it in.
It's always been consistent when the same map and similiar conditions are used.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by oneintheory

3 WOT runs is what I've heard.

+1

[InlineSix]

yesterday evening I noticed it's pulling much stronger now, it's really smooth, and to have all that power so low in the RPM range is simply amazing.

Couldn't be any happier with the results.

[Yes2m3cs]

You guys are killin me I know I am going to have to get Jb3 one way or another...

good to hear from another happy jb3 user


Brian

[fshowcars]

Originally Posted by esses

If this is true then you would knock over and over before adapting while the ecu 'found the right balance' of fuel/air. I just don't see that happening, the ecu controls wastegates and maf. The ecu only needs one set of data points to know what it is dealing with. The only adaptation you are going to feel is lag.

I supopse rcracer_tx is right, more data will allow minute changes from the ecu which will reduce lag and alow more optimum operating paramaters for the wastegates, but I would say you are closer to 95% after one WOT. You arent going to see wide tolerance in a modern engine, especially one with piezo injectors.

All this is easy enough to test, fill up with 89 octane and get a knock sensor. If you don't knock then the ecu is in fact working at digital speed.

you are greatly underestimating engine control systems. the ECU doesn't control the wastegates or maf... the maf is an air meter that reads input and wastegates are pressure controlled.

It takes more than the first startup and drive to adapt an ECU. If you've ever monitored or worked with a stand alone management system you'd see the large variations of tune depending on knock (whether octane, heat, etc), weather conditions, altitude, coolant temp etc. etc.

[fshowcars]

Originally Posted by xG35guy

You guys are killin me I know I am going to have to get Jb3 one way or another...

good to hear from another happy jb3 user


Brian

it's a great product and great support, I just pulled my JB 1.21 and mailed it off to BMS for an update, which is FREE of charge!

[BerkTechnology]

#1. Our cars don't have a MAF sensor. We have a speed density setup w/ MAP & IAT.
#2. WOT is only one small part of the bigger picture. The JB3 is mapped to address all throttle positions. Partial throttle/load situations are what make the car "feel" good. It's very 1 dimensional to focus solely on WOT power. She can't have a great rear but no boobs would be a deal breaker right?
#3. There are multiple data points and trims the ECU has control over to make the car perform or throw itself in self preservation mode.
#4. We've been running the JB3 for over a year now. Great product!

[esses]

. . . Don't want to get into an argument about semantics here.

Our 135s run a Siemens MSD80/81 DME which controls the following: blower, secondary air injection, fuel tank ventilation valve, map cooling, fuel pump, radiator shutter, water pump delivery rate, electronics box fan, exhaust gas valve, diagnostic module tank and pump, variable intake system, malfunction indicator lamp, electronic throttle control system, start relay, throttle valve, and generator.

It adapts the following: knock control, lambda, intake manifold, throttle valve, fuel/air, secondary air injection, battery, octane rating, variants, variable valve timing, and vanos.

It is an 8bit system.

Draw your own conclusions.

PS: it is patented, so this is public information.

[Alext]

Even with an air intake Terry at BMS recommends allowing a few days for full adaptation by the ECU to take place.

[LemansE82]

Anyone having issues with the car hesitating?
At times when i'm shifting gears, it's like hitting a brick wall.
Like there's no boost then slowly it rises. What can be causing this?

Currently on JB3, but this happened from time to time without tune.

[1quickgsx]

LemansE82 you are shifting wrong its all about the clutch work and its called spark cut or do you not have a cdv