Potential Buyer Question: Tracking a Convertible?

[amitv85]

Hi Guys,

So I use to be a regular on E46Fanatics (10 year member) and have had 3 E46 M3's in the past.

I am currently in the market for a E92 M3 but came across a deal on a E93 M3 Hardtop Convertible.


My Dilemma
I plan on joining the BMW CCA and tracking this summer. I know coupes body structure is more rigid/strong (B-pillars) for tracking/performance, plus they're lighter. Would I be missing out that much if I track the 'vert?

This is for pure pleasure/joy. I wouldnt mind being able to roll with the top down this spring/summer and have fun at the track a few times a year but if it would hinder the performance a GREAT deal then I wouldn't want to bite the bullet right now.


Deal Details: 08 E93 M3 with 8K Miles for $50K. I see people got better deals last year since the car market was terrible but currently this is around dealer auction value.

[ksoze]

Have you checked the lease prices on a new one? The terms are UFB right now and may make a used one less attractive financially and enjoyment wise.

I believe some tracks have restrictions on non-rigid roof cars, so may want to check your track or club.

[Erhan]

Originally Posted by amitv85

Hi Guys,

So I use to be a regular on E46Fanatics (10 year member) and have had 3 E46 M3's in the past.

I am currently in the market for a E92 M3 but came across a deal on a E93 M3 Hardtop Convertible.


My Dilemma
I plan on joining the BMW CCA and tracking this summer. I know coupes body structure is more rigid/strong (B-pillars) for tracking/performance, plus they're lighter. Would I be missing out that much if I track the 'vert?

This is for pure pleasure/joy. I wouldnt mind being able to roll with the top down this spring/summer and have fun at the track a few times a year but if it would hinder the performance a GREAT deal then I wouldn't want to bite the bullet right now.


Deal Details: 08 E93 M3 with 8K Miles for $50K. I see people got better deals last year since the car market was terrible but currently this is around dealer auction value.

I believe E90 has the B-pillar thus the most rigid body in the series. E92 is a tad less rigid than E90.

I haven't tracked my E92 yet, but coming from Z4MC, this car is heavy. That being said, it can hide its weight pretty well since most of the weight is at center/low.

I believe the E93 is 400lbs heavier than the E92. Where is this extra weight focused? I'd assume it is at the roof structure, which will be up at the track so it will raise your center of gravity a bit. So it is not only the weight, but also where this weight is.. Hope this helps.

-erhan

[radiantm3]

Some BMWCCA Clubs don't allow convertibles on track days without a proper roll cage/bars. I'd find out more info on that if it's a concern. Not sure if that applies to the E93.

[amitv85]

Originally Posted by ksoze

Have you checked the lease prices on a new one? The terms are UFB right now and may make a used one less attractive financially and enjoyment wise.

I believe some tracks have restrictions on non-rigid roof cars, so may want to check your track or club.

Thanks for the info - I'll double check with BMW CCA and Tri-state tracks.


I did look at leasing (approx $850/mo Coupe - fully loaded 2k upfront for fees/first month payment - taxes rolled in) but I can get 4-4.5% financing over 6-7 years through my credit union. The reason this attracts me is my payment comes out lower than the lease plus I actually might want to sell the car in 2 years rather than hold a lease 3 years (Yes I may sound crazy but when the new M3 comes I might want to jump its bones right away)

[///My5UV]

If your local clubs (there's usually way more choices than BMWCCA) don't require a roll bar, and you value the top-down capability more than a little bit of better handling, go for it!

[ksoze]

Originally Posted by amitv85

I did look at leasing (approx $850/mo Coupe - fully loaded 2k upfront for fees/first month payment - taxes rolled in) but I can get 4-4.5% financing over 6-7 years through my credit union. The reason this attracts me is my payment comes out lower than the lease plus I actually might want to sell the car in 2 years rather than hold a lease 3 years (Yes I may sound crazy but when the new M3 comes I might want to jump its bones right away)

Surprised at that payment on a coupe - the lease interest rate on the verts is like 2% before any MSD's.

If you are definitely planning on selling in two or three years, leasing may be better financially. Letting BMW take the hit on a car that has just been replaced with a new model may be wise, else you would have like 4 years left of payments on a traditional loan. On another note, a three year lease will put you after the initial jacked prices of the new model and also let the bugs get worked out in those first cars.

[amitv85]

Originally Posted by ksoze

Surprised at that payment on a coupe - the lease interest rate on the verts is like 2% before any MSD's.

If you are definitely planning on selling in two or three years, leasing may be better financially. Letting BMW take the hit on a car that has just been replaced with a new model may be wise, else you would have like 4 years left of payments on a traditional loan. On another note, a three year lease will put you after the initial jacked prices of the new model and also let the bugs get worked out in those first cars.

I do agree. The only reason I considered purchasing this car is I would be buying it for $2k less than auction price and this has less miles than anything I found on Manheim. It's from a private party, looks to be taken care of meticulously. Currently its fully loaded w/ 6MT and only 8,000 miles. My credit union said they can do financing as low as 3.39% but I like to give myself some room since although I have decent credit (around 720) I figure I might get something like 4-4.25% worst case scenario.

Lease Vs. Financing
With zero down in both cases it comes out to about the same monthly payment for a 36 month lease loaded '11 coupe and this 08 Convertible loaded with 8k miles. If I hold onto the car for 2-3 years, I guess I would just be gambling if the depreciation at least equals the equity built up so it makes sense. The equity, in addition to getting this car for under dealer auction price would help...but when the new M3 comes out prices could plunge...


Maybe this is an impulse buy - but I def want to finally pursue my dream of hitting the track and keeping my bad behaviors off public roads (as much as possible....I was TERRIBLE in my previous M3s but damn it was fun) After having 3 E46 M3's I definitely want a change.

I am open to any/all suggestions.

Thanks!

[///My5UV]

Originally Posted by amitv85

Maybe this is an impulse buy - but I def want to finally pursue my dream of hitting the track and keeping my bad behaviors off public roads (as much as possible....I was TERRIBLE in my previous M3s but damn it was fun) After having 3 E46 M3's I definitely want a change.
Thanks!

One alternative would be buy whatever you want for the street and rent a no-shit real, live racecar, maybe do a racing school. Skip that entry-level pot-smoking DE stuff and go straight to the crack pipe

[JB_Vert]

Originally Posted by erhanh

I believe the E93 is 400lbs heavier than the E92. Where is this extra weight focused? I'd assume it is at the roof structure, which will be up at the track so it will raise your center of gravity a bit. So it is not only the weight, but also where this weight is.. Hope this helps.

-erhan

The E46 convertible was also 400 lbs heavier and it, of course, had a soft top. I believe most of the 400 lb difference is located in the body structure. The roof is obviously heavier than a soft top, mainly because of the heavier structure used to raise and lower it, not so much because the top itself is that heavy. But, again, I would think well over half of the 400 lbs is in the added body structure.

I've been told that BMW CCA events don't allow convertibles without roll cages due to an accident from a few years ago involving an instructor. Some non-CCA events do allow convertibles.

JB

[amitv85]

Originally Posted by ///My5UV

One alternative would be buy whatever you want for the street and rent a no-shit real, live racecar, maybe do a racing school. Skip that entry-level pot-smoking DE stuff and go straight to the crack pipe

I do plan on having a daily. My businesses is not in the best of areas and I want to avoid pulling up in anything nice. Also with NYC potholes and how much I drive between my businesses on a daily basis its not a good idea. I would try to use it 3-days a week (Fri-Sun) and for Track Events.


I checked into renting a car at the track, the Miata Spec cars at some tracks want $850 a day...I know that tires, wear/tear come into play but that could be my monthly payment....plus I just simply love the M3. I've driven many cars but this is still my all time-all around favorite car. Nice car to cruise on the weekends, go out with my girl, and hit the track for fun.

[thai357sig]

Hey AmitV85, how did you end up with owning three E46s. Did you jump from coupe to sedan and back again? Were they leases? Was the length of ownership long enough to fully pay off a brand new M3?

I'm curious because I always purchase with financing and have never leased. Just wondering what the exact trade off would be and which methods come out ahead.

[amitv85]

Originally Posted by thai357sig

Hey AmitV85, how did you end up with owning three E46s. Did you jump from coupe to sedan and back again? Were they leases? Was the length of ownership long enough to fully pay off a brand new M3?

I'm curious because I always purchase with financing and have never leased. Just wondering what the exact trade off would be and which methods come out ahead.

It's a kinda long story but...

I actually was in the car business. All my E46's were Coupes and Manual Transmission.

In 2001/2002 I got a 330Ci (from Salvage auction - had engine fire)...in the following 2 years I modded the #$^% out of it (Widebody, Full Kit etc) and was part of the early NorthEast EuroProjektz Team. I parted it, and ended up selling the actual car for as much as I paid for it 2 years earlier.

I then found an AMAZING deal on a 2001 BMW M3 AC Schnitzer S3 Coupe (Well all original AC Parts) - locally which I purchased for a steal, drove for a few months parted out, and sold for a healthy profit. (Between the car and the parts, I made $8 to 9K in under 2 months)

A month after I sold that car, I found a great deal at wholesale value on a 03.5 M3 Coupe from a Trade at a dealer in Texas. Bought the car sight unseen and had it shipped to me. I enjoyed it for about a year and a half...had an accident and sold it after repairing it. If it wasnt for the accident, I could of sold that car for maybe only 7k less than I paid almost 2 years earlier.

THEN, I had an 02 Coupe, rebuilt title that i threw some parts I had left from my previous M's in, enjoyed that for about 6-8 months before finally selling because I planned to use the money towards a business opportunity. That car I sold at auction for a couple grand less than what I had into it but I got to enjoy it.


Since my M's I drove a 02 530i for 2 years, and now a 00 MB E430 for 2 years. I've been dying to get back into an ///M.

All my cars have been paid off - no lease or financing. This will be the first car I plan on financing, as I would like to stay as liquid as possible, to keep a cushion for myself/my business, and any good investments that may come up.


PHOTO ALBUM OF PAST CARS:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...3&l=70ed260984

[ksoze]

Originally Posted by amitv85

Lease Vs. Financing
With zero down in both cases it comes out to about the same monthly payment for a 36 month lease loaded '11 coupe and this 08 Convertible loaded with 8k miles. If I hold onto the car for 2-3 years, I guess I would just be gambling if the depreciation at least equals the equity built up so it makes sense. The equity, in addition to getting this car for under dealer auction price would help...but when the new M3 comes out prices could plunge...

Run the lease numbers with a E93 - those lease terms are way better than coupe.

Don't forgot, in three years, your 2008 will be 7 years old, out of warranty and competing in resale against a brand new model and those with younger E9X cars looking to sell to get into the new F30.

[450whp335i]

I have seen members lease e93s for low 800s, high 700s.

If you do the math, it's much more beneficial

Also, I was searching around and a member had pictures of Willow Springs; hs username is Persian54

Send him a PM and ask his experience; I'm assuming he'd be happy to share his experience(s) with you.

The no-vert rule shouldn't apple to the e93 M3 as the e93 has built in roll bars if I remember correctly

[amitv85]

Originally Posted by ksoze

Run the lease numbers with a E93 - those lease terms are way better than coupe.

Don't forgot, in three years, your 2008 will be 7 years old, out of warranty and competing in resale against a brand new model and those with younger E9X cars looking to sell to get into the new F30.

Thanks for your advice.

Just heard back from the BMW CCA NY Chapter President. He said that convertibles arent allowed to participate in their driving school and most tracks require 6 point roll bars which just wouldnt work out for me. Looks like I'm back to looking for a coupe.

Originally Posted by BMW CCA NY

As of now we are not allowed to have convertible on the track at are driving school. The roll cage that you would need is very expensive and would destroy the look of the car plus you have to add other safety features to the car for the driver and passenger that is not worth the expense.

I found a similarly optioned/priced Coupe for about the same price but it has DCT and I really am looking for 6MT - although the idea of the DCT sounds great I think I would miss having the clutch...it seems more "fun" even if I dont have optimal shifts.


So $850 for an extensively options 2011 BMW M3 10k miles/yr, zero down, taxes rolled in (2k up front they said would be the first month payment, plus fees etc...which seems a bit high) seem like a good deal? This is through a lease broker. Quotes from Sales Manager at local dealer came out about $50 more a month.

[ksoze]

Originally Posted by 450whp335i

The no-vert rule shouldn't apple to the e93 M3 as the e93 has built in roll bars if I remember correctly

The E46 also had the same roll-over triggered pop up roll bars as the E93, so may not make a difference to some tracks who want a fixed roof.

[ksoze]

Originally Posted by amitv85

So $850 for an extensively options 2011 BMW M3 10k miles/yr, zero down, taxes rolled in (2k up front they said would be the first month payment, plus fees etc...which seems a bit high) seem like a good deal? This is through a lease broker. Quotes from Sales Manager at local dealer came out about $50 more a month.

I would be surprised to see a third party leasing company beat the current BMW lease terms right now, definitely not on the vert. Get the factor the broker is using and make sure the BMW supplied quote is near invoice and the money factor is not marked up. Also see how multiple security deposits can even lower the payment more on a BMWFS lease.

[FC]

Originally Posted by ///My5UV

If your local clubs (there's usually way more choices than BMWCCA) don't require a roll bar, and you value the top-down capability more than a little bit of better handling, go for it!

I foudn the sedan to handle a LOT better than the cab. As always, blame it on hundreds of pounds of more weight.

[amitv85]

Originally Posted by ksoze

I would be surprised to see a third party leasing company beat the current BMW lease terms right now, definitely not on the vert. Get the factor the broker is using and make sure the BMW supplied quote is near invoice and the money factor is not marked up. Also see how multiple security deposits can even lower the payment more on a BMWFS lease.

Ok I will def inquire about that. To my knowledge, this would be a lease through BMW Finance. I think these Brokers find the cars and get them priced in at invoice. They even said if I currently have a BMW Registered under my name I could qualify for an additional discount. I do not know how MSDs work but I'll look into it.

If I could get additional discounts with being a current BMW user and putting down MSDs to bring down the payment...all the better. I'm just itching to get something and if I can order now I'll have it in time for spring!

[stega]

Originally Posted by amitv85

Thanks for your advice.

Just heard back from the BMW CCA NY Chapter President. He said that convertibles arent allowed to participate in their driving school and most tracks require 6 point roll bars which just wouldnt work out for me. Looks like I'm back to looking for a coupe.



I found a similarly optioned/priced Coupe for about the same price but it has DCT and I really am looking for 6MT - although the idea of the DCT sounds great I think I would miss having the clutch...it seems more "fun" even if I dont have optimal shifts.


So $850 for an extensively options 2011 BMW M3 10k miles/yr, zero down, taxes rolled in (2k up front they said would be the first month payment, plus fees etc...which seems a bit high) seem like a good deal? This is through a lease broker. Quotes from Sales Manager at local dealer came out about $50 more a month.

This rule is only in place for BMWCCA... PCA and others will allow a E93 w/ no cage. And so will most tracks, it all really depends on who is sponsoring the event. Think about how many vert super cars you can buy.

[RevFreak14]

Originally Posted by amitv85

Thanks for the info - I'll double check with BMW CCA and Tri-state tracks.


I did look at leasing (approx $850/mo Coupe - fully loaded 2k upfront for fees/first month payment - taxes rolled in) but I can get 4-4.5% financing over 6-7 years through my credit union. The reason this attracts me is my payment comes out lower than the lease plus I actually might want to sell the car in 2 years rather than hold a lease 3 years (Yes I may sound crazy but when the new M3 comes I might want to jump its bones right away)

Have you checked financing with BMW Financial Services ?? I got mine with 0.9% financing. Not sure if that deal is still around but they should be able to do better than 4%.