Ethanol

[Dammmittt]

Since I got back up here in NH, I noticed that my car hasn't been starting as well as it had in SC. I've been using nothing but the most premium gasoline available at the pump and have used everything from Shell to Citgo to Sunoco and others. I decided to to some research and it turns out MBTE which is what most gasoline companies use as a gasoline addative to keep your fuel burning clean, has been banned in NH and replaced by ethanol. So it turns out that, whatever pump I go to will have ethanol included in it. I'll soon be in MA where it won't be as big of an issue (I hope) but this sucks.

Turns out MBTE is an environmental disaster if spilled outside of your car, and if it hasn't been banned in your state, it most likely will be soon. So, what do we do about this when we have a car with an engine that has a low tolerance for ethanol? Is there anyway that the dealer can reprogram the fuel mixture during the start sequence to help with the ignition?

So, thanks in advance for any advice from people who've been dealing with this in the past, and for the rest of us who haven't had to deal with it yet, but soon will your thoughts are also appreciated.

[ward]

no issues here, been running E10 for as long as CA has made us do it with no problems

[Caddyshk]

M's run like shit on the stuff - try Shell

[Dammmittt]

Originally Posted by ward

no issues here, been running E10 for as long as CA has made us do it with no problems

S54s in the M are less tolerant than your 3.0 M54.

Originally Posted by Caddyshk

M's run like shit on the stuff - try Shell

Shell has been my primary gas vendor. The V-Power hasn't been doing it for me, it seems that its regardless of brand, everyone in NH has ethanol.

[ward]

with the sheer amount of E46 M3's in this area and all of them running E10 I doubt it's much of an issue

I also ran a good number of miles on my E36 M3 (different motor I know) on E10 and had no ill effects

[IQ-Man]

When I go on the racetrack I mix a little methanol (similar effects like ethanol) into fuel.

[Caddyshk]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

S54s in the M are less tolerant than your 3.0 M54.



Shell has been my primary gas vendor. The V-Power hasn't been doing it for me, it seems that its regardless of brand, everyone in NH has ethanol.

In Canada Shell V-Power has zero ethanol. Most of us have had rough starting and idol with other brands up here on the Z4MC/R's.

[Dammmittt]

Caddy what does shell V-Power use as a detergent in the gasoline in Canada? If it isn't Ethanol its probably MBTE, which is going to go away eventually. If its something different I'd love to know what it is.

Progress...I filled up on Citgo 93 yesterday. They couldn't tell me about the ethanol content, except that it was there. It started fine at the pump but we'll see how it does after it has been sitting for a while.

[Dammmittt]

Originally Posted by ward

with the sheer amount of E46 M3's in this area and all of them running E10 I doubt it's much of an issue

I also ran a good number of miles on my E36 M3 (different motor I know) on E10 and had no ill effects

There may be an issue with other components that are different in the E85/86 Ms and the E46 M3. Software may be an issue as well. Like I said before, if there is a way to change the fuel/air mixture during ignition that could likely solve the problem as well.

[pbdm4k]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

There may be an issue with other components that are different in the E85/86 Ms and the E46 M3. Software may be an issue as well. Like I said before, if there is a way to change the fuel/air mixture during ignition that could likely solve the problem as well.

Standalone ECU. :P

[561design]

Originally Posted by pbdm4k

Standalone ECU. :P

Don't even suggest that. If you don't know what you're doing or don't have good company support. You can seriously mess up your engine. Not to mention a couple trips to the dyno to be sure that your settings are correct. From what I understand, the OBD II and higher ECU's in the cars are adaptive. It takes a little while for them to make the changes as you've commented about. But the changes are made.

It's done not only for the quality of gas but the adjustment is also made because of different air densities due to air temperatures.

[Dammmittt]

ECU...you mean like PROcede?

But on a more serious note, since I filled up on the Citgo premium yesterday I haven't had any issues. So...if you roll through NH anytime soon make sure you stop at Citgo and nowhere else

[enfield]

This is probably why I will have to get rid of my Z4M - gasoline....

[Dammmittt]

NEVER!

[enfield]

What would you suggest Dammmittt? No gasoline that works for the Z4M means a useless piece of machine.

[Dammmittt]

Drill a hole and start your own refinery? HAHAHA, actually I don't think it would be a big issue to prep the M Coupe (S54) for full ethanol consumption. BMW would just have to be committed to doing so. There are plenty of flex fuel cars and an internal combustion engine is an internal combustion engine. Some physical compents may have to be changed or added, but I doubt it would be too expensive to do. Its just that right now there isn't a NEED to do so.

[ward]

I think you may be making this a bigger deal than is necessary

[561design]

Originally Posted by Dammmittt

Drill a hole and start your own refinery? HAHAHA, actually I don't think it would be a big issue to prep the M Coupe (S54) for full ethanol consumption. BMW would just have to be committed to doing so. There are plenty of flex fuel cars and an internal combustion engine is an internal combustion engine. Some physical compents may have to be changed or added, but I doubt it would be too expensive to do. Its just that right now there isn't a NEED to do so.

Ethanol in general is just a big gimmick. It may cost a little less, but it gets less mileage and power than gasoline. I also don't understand how they're mixing ehtanol in all gas in NH. From what I understood if your vehicle is not built for ethanol, it can destroy the internals of the motor. So you end up paying more for less. The higher consumption will just put a strain on a different resource and will only make the corn farmers rich.

[Caddyshk]

I seem to remember seeing that ethanol production takes more energy and produces more greenhouse gases than it saves during combustion.

[pbdm4k]

Originally Posted by Caddyshk

I seem to remember seeing that ethanol production takes more energy and produces more greenhouse gases than it saves during combustion.

The biggest reason for using ethanol would be for reducing foreign oil dependancies.

Last I heard, the US Govt doesn't care much about the environment anyways as demonstrated by its lack of participation in the Kyoto accord or its mysterious disappearances of electric cars in California with a swift move to hydrogen power. For them, its all about the OIL. I'm probably starting a really big sh!tstorm with this, but I still only see the war in Iraq as a means to obtain more oil. What democracy have they brought to another country when they still treat its inhabitants unfairly and treat its citizens on a basis of arrest first, ask questions later?

Oh well, enough of me ranting, check this out: Lotus Exige powered by Bio Ethanol (E85) making 265hp.

http://www.engineerlive.com/european...e85-fuel.thtml

[Dammmittt]

Well...either way you look at it, ethanol and any other type of alcohol related fuel is renewable unlike oil based fuels, so you don't have to worry about ever running out. There are plenty of race cars that run on the stuff so I don't think power output is an issue. As far as converting your current gasoline engine to run on the stuff, from what I've read its not a complicated process. Most cars only require about $200 dollars worth of parts to make the conversion, so figure in a BMW it may cost up to $1000. The only reason for cars to have less hp on ethanol based fuels is octane. Octane is based mostly off of the quality of the fuel and the amount of refining that goes into. E85 is probably just a start, I doubt 85 is the highest octane ethanol is capable of and we'll probably see E90 and above in a few years to come.

The reason NH uses for blending ethanol in the fuel is to burn it cleaner. Like I said before most states and gas companies use MBTE which is methanol based to do this. But research has shown that MBTE is an environmental disaster if the fuel is spilled. Apparently ethanol isn't.

But, for now, for me, Citgo is the answer. And in a couple weeks I'll be out of NH and won't care anymore anyway

[Dammmittt]

Originally Posted by pbdm4k

The biggest reason for using ethanol would be for reducing foreign oil dependancies.

Last I heard, the US Govt doesn't care much about the environment anyways as demonstrated by its lack of participation in the Kyoto accord or its mysterious disappearances of electric cars in California with a swift move to hydrogen power. For them, its all about the OIL. I'm probably starting a really big sh!tstorm with this, but I still only see the war in Iraq as a means to obtain more oil. What democracy have they brought to another country when they still treat its inhabitants unfairly and treat its citizens on a basis of arrest first, ask questions later?

Oh well, enough of me ranting, check this out: Lotus Exige powered by Bio Ethanol (E85) making 265hp.

http://www.engineerlive.com/european...e85-fuel.thtml

I'll ignore the Iraq comments and focus on what I think is the heart of the issue. The reason for our reliance on Oil doesn't have anything to do with the middle east. The reason is the teamsters. As long as we have a fuel that requires truck drivers to move it, I don't think the goverment will have problems. Ethanol and biodiesel fuels are great cuz trucks will only need to be updated to transport the different fuels. Hydrogen and electric vehicles would elimante the need for truckers to move fuel, so the chances of the government moving forward with that is slim.

As far as the oil companies go, engines still need lubrication, and they still own all of our pumping stations, converting those stations to biodiesel and ethanol would be less of a headache than trying to convert it to hydro or electric power.

I think most people win. The only people that lose out are foriegn countries and the ports. But other things can go on boats. And with the amount of farms that are available to grow corn and other ethanol producing crops in our own country, we may even have a surplus of ethanol some day and be able to ship that to other countries. Holy crap what a concept. How cool would it be to have the rest of the world rely on us for energy?

2 cents have been given.